Power Dynamics Shape Every Conversation We Have

A single stubborn hair turns into a surprisingly deep conversation about change, aging, and what it means to move through the messy middle with your eyes open. We talk about gray hair, the awkward “transition process” of perimenopause and menopause, and the stories many of us inherited about what it means to be a woman north of 40. Then we push past the metaphor and get honest about what’s really happening in midlife: multiple doors closing and opening at once, and the constant pressure to redefine who we are while keeping our footing.

Next, we shift into work and leadership transitions. We share a personal milestone moment, the scramble of lists and mental load that comes with going back to work, and the difference between being busy and being productive. From iPhone upgrades to AirPods that finally need replacing, we use everyday decisions to spotlight a core leadership skill: communicating expectations clearly instead of assuming people can read our minds.

The back half gets even more practical as we unpack executive coaching themes like leadership drift, imposter syndrome after a promotion, and why the skills that got you here may not be the skills you need now. We also dig into systems thinking, parenting as leadership, and how families can act like small organizations where change management principles become real. Finally, we tackle power dynamics head-on: how money shifts the burden of proof, how urgency can give power away, and how negotiation, gender norms, psychological safety, autonomy, and confidence all shape what happens in the room.

If this conversation hits close to home, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s navigating a transition, and leave a review so more listeners can find us.

Transcript

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Welcome To Jess And Lisa

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We've got stories to share. From a heart to your ears, lots to unpack there. Tune it every week. You won't wanna miss that different life with Jess and Lisa.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

We are navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Okay.

One Hair And A Bad Mood

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Hi. Hello. Hi.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Hi.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

I just did one of those things. I don't know if you ever do this thing, but I was annoyed all day. I was not not that. I know we all get annoyed.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

I was gonna say I'm annoyed all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

No, I was annoyed all day by a single hair that did not make it into my bun.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

And so I decided just to rip it out of my head. What? It was just one. It was just one hair. And you don't do the thing where you like pull it up and wrap it around. I did that a half a dozen times. It refused to comply. And so I said, I have given you sufficient number of chances at this point. You need to go. You need to exit. So it it exited.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

It exited.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

It did, it did it did.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

I something very stressful must have happened in the last two weeks because I have way more gray hairs.

unknown 1:51

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Just like a whole smattering of gray hairs.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Here's my thing about gray hair. If I could just poof overnight, be salt and pepper, I would totally do that. Well, that's what it feels like happened to me. I would embrace that. But that's not what happens. You have to go through a whole decade or more of like the process, the transition process. I mean, I feel like there's something metaphorical in there anyway, but but I would just like it, just one of the other. Just like keep my hair all one color, and then we can just fully commit to the gray salt and pepper, whatever it's gonna be, white look. Um I don't like the in-betweenness.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Okay. Absolutely.

Gray Hair And Midlife Transitions

SPEAKER_02 2:40

There's a greater life metaphor here where you are describing the change and experiencing the transition. Yeah. And the transitions are just hard. Because transitions are hard. I mean, that's like it's hard to label it. Is it this button?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

But I mean that way this transition that we are describing is maybe the biggest in any single woman's life, besides becoming a mom, which not everybody does. No, no, no, no. The transition. Oh parry parry to parry to actual. I don't know. Like that whole transition. That is, and you know what? I would actually argue that it's bigger. You know why? Because not every woman becomes a mom. Uh-huh. But every woman has to go through this process. It is absolutely ubiquitous. Yeah. So in that way, it is bigger. Yeah. Uh okay. Did not expect to take this direction. No way when I'm talking about my one single hair that I needed to pull out because it was annoying me.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

And I I am also thinking about the women who do not have female reproductive systems who maybe don't.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

So I had a feeling you were thinking about that when I saw your face just now.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Right. So I I think, you know, the inclusivity of perimenopause and and menopause is not 100% of women. Not 100%. But I hear you. But I hear you on the broad strokes. And I also agree that it might be worse in or more intense in that it comes amid all of these other amidst all of these other changes. And so there's the professional transition that people find themselves in, the aging of our children, the pieces of our identity that we've tied to all of these various sorts of things. Yeah. That are not, it's there's a lot happening kind of all at once. Yes. It does feel like a very big awakening. And most of us have, we've arrived at this point of like knowing that it's change, knowing what's happening. Yeah. You're knowing that something is happening.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

And also you've been kind of it's been kind of alluded to your entire life, too. That you're like, this is a thing that will happen to you at some point. And so I don't know. It feels like lots of doors closing, lots of doors opening, lots of like just like you said, like it's the transition of all transitions.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Right. And I don't, I don't know. So my mom was a gynecologist. Uh-huh. And so you'd think that, I mean, we talked about the reproductive system. We all of the the things were present at the dinner table. And yet it was described as kind of like two discrete events. You get your first period, and someday you have your last period. Like when that happens, and all of the things leading up to it are different.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

You know, like we didn't really talk about the transition, we only ever talked about the change. Oh no, like I never talked about it with my family, but it was like this societal understanding. Really? Yeah. To me, at least there's like there's always this big arrow pointing to this point in your life, which is at least in my growing up experience, indicated oldness.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Right. I was gonna say that's all that I ever got is that when people were when women specifically were thank you, patriarchy, hashtag smash the patriarchy. When women were north of 40, they were old. Yeah, it was like all of their good years had expired. Yes, we're behind them. And it's a little like their utility.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

But that's not the case anymore.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Same. But I don't love that women's utility for so long has been tied to whether or not they could produce children.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yes. However, and also that is a pretty important thing that we do.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah, for the continuation of the human species, species-wise, yes, it's a pretty pretty freaking important thing. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Wow. How do we get here? Gray hair? Yes. But the thing is, the hair was not gray, it was normal colored, which was just annoying.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Right. Right. Well, I was gonna tell you the story, which is that I have had all of these gray hairs, and they, you know, they're like it. I don't know how gray hairs are produced, but it's like overnight. It's it's this long, it's a hair as long as any of the hair on my head. That's grey. I'm like, where did that come from? Like, I never have these little baby. Mine is not like that. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Mine is little baby ones, always out front. I did not have that.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

I just looked in the mirror and I was like, oh my gosh, there's all it's almost like dyes, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Like, like the hair just kind of like shape shifts or right ceases to like it's like yeah, it's like it transforms.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

It reminds me of uh what's her face on in Harry Potter, who changes her hair color all the time. Tonks, yes. It's like, is it Tonks? Yes, yeah, so yeah, it's like that where like the hair in my head just overnight turns gray.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

It's like all of but I don't think that's how it actually happens.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

I think it does grow. If I was so this is this is funny to me because this conversation is very much like reverse, what I would expect. I would expect me to be saying what you are saying, and I would expect you to say the following things. You probably just didn't see it before, and it was just escaping your eyeline, and now you see it, and there it is.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Okay, maybe, but also I am looking, I like I am looking in there, you know, and I have never seen, never in my life have I seen a short little baby gray hair. They have all been long anyway. So I was put I put my sunglasses on top of my head, yeah, and a piece of my hair got caught in the nose part I hate that and it pulled it pulled out. So that's the connection to the single hair that you pulled out. But that was the last hair I pulled out accidentally, but I knew I knew before I saw the hair, I was like, that was one of my gray hairs, and sure as shit it was.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Wow. I know so weird. That was that is weird.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

It shows a level of omniscience over your hair that I wouldn't have known existed, which is why I think maybe I didn't it's not that I just haven't noticed them. I mean, I I've in like I've gotten at least 10 new gray hairs in the last two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Well, it is the time of our lives to be doing that. I'm excited about it. We shall be 41 soon, you and I.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

I know. My my husband has I mean, every time I cut his hair, there's yeah, maybe a little bit more gray. A little bit more just creeping up the sides.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I know it's one of my it's one of my favorite things. I just and he's I think it's so great. I think of him as being significantly younger than us. He's not significantly younger, but it's like it's more than a year, so therefore it's significant. I mean, it feels significant sometimes. Yeah, yeah. So that is startling, you know, that he's experiencing that and significantly younger than us.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

So yeah.

Productive Days And Real Energy

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Anyway, how have you been?

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Great. Yeah. I'm having a really energizing sort of day. Oh, good. Yeah, I did I've just done a lot of good work and made a lot of great connections. And it's I mean, we've talked a lot about the difference between busyness and productivity. And I would say I've had a smattering of both.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah. I like those days. I mean, we've discussed it, but I like those days. Yeah. Um I know that we will have put out an unpacked snack on this topic. Yes. At some point well before this this episode will air. Yes. But I um I brought a prop with me that you can only see if you're looking at me, which most people won't be, but I bought brought a prop.

The Balloon Dog Job Ritual

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Okay. I am can you describe for the listener what you're seeing here?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Yes. And I'm I will also say we're probab probably not going to be in video, so I will do as best as I can. Do you do your best, do your best. All right. So I am looking at a an object in the shape of a balloon dog that looks like a disco ball, a golden disco balled, yes, solid balloon dog.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

And I can tell you it is ceramic in nature. Oh, ceramic. Yeah. So I bought this for myself this week. Uh-huh. Um, okay. Yes. I'm I'm like, tell me the significance of the balloon dog. Yeah. I'm curious about that. I bought it for myself this week because it's my third one. I have a pink one and a gold one. How am I not seeing these?

unknown 11:57

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Are they you don't spend a ton of time in my office to be fair? Are they the same size? The the pink one is slightly bigger than the gold one, and then this one is significantly bigger than both of them. Okay, go on. Um, and I bought the gold one when I got the job at Amazon, and I bought the pink one when I bought got the job at IBM. And I bought myself this one because I got a job this week. And as we uh, you know, as I teased, you will have heard this already on an unpacked snack that we'll release a long time ago by the time this airs, but um, that was a big, big part of my week, big part of the last couple weeks running up to it. So my week has been very much in the vein of, oh my god, I'm going back to work. And like the cascade of things that then fall out of your brain and onto paper that are like, oh my god, what now? You know, all the things. All the things. So I've been doing a lot of writing in notes applications of all of these different things that I want to get out of my head and onto some sort of document that I can refer back to and don't have to keep banging around in my brain. Um, and we can probably just do an unpack about this at some point, about the kind of the structure that I'm thinking about implementing, but I go back to work in three weeks.

unknown 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Less than three weeks. And it is very clear to me that my time in this phase is running up short. Speaking of change and transition. Yes, exactly. So uh one of my lists, one of my many lists is everything I want to get done before that day arrives. And uh so far, not doing awesome on that list. There's a lot of big things on the list, so it's not things that I can really just like do in an instant, but yeah, lots of things on the list. So it's going to be a relatively busy three weeks, even though it's going to be also restful and relaxing, because it kind of has to be compared to what you know I'm going to be jumping into.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

So well, I can't wait to unpack snack with you sometime in our future as of the recording, but also it will have been in the past. Past. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

This is where we start spending time in podcast land.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Exactly. Exactly. And I do want to hear about the structure. And yeah, maybe maybe what that looks like is in a future full episode, we unpack like what's the structure.

SPEAKER_04 14:49

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

And checking, or in the snack, we do the what's the structure. And then in the full episode, we talk about how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

So yeah. So stay tuned for all of that. I think it's it's all gonna be stuff that is going to evolve, but I'm interested to talk about it. And I will say that the underpinnings of it come from a place of I might not be the best at expressing my expectations.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Ooh, I feel like that could definitely be an unpack on my example. And you also feel like that is definitely the case. Yes. I and I say that with love. I mean, I think you're everyone has stuff that they can work on.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

That is definitely one of mine. The expectations are very fully formed in my head and rarely make it out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah. I I would say that is that's probably true of most people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

You know, because this is where communication breaks down when it's in your head. If you're having a conversation with somebody that never actually happened, like that's gonna cause a major communication breakdown. So yes, yeah.

Expectations And The Tech Upgrade

SPEAKER_02 15:57

We we had a similar conversation uh in our house last night recently, where we have talked about replacing our iPhones and on what schedule. It's a big decision. It is it is a big decision, but it's also, you know, part of our planned maintenance of our technology system in our house.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

How much phones are integrated into our everyday and nearly every moment, it is a big decision, especially if you're the type of person that keeps it around for a minute, which I know you and I are right.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Those people so when we got our last phones, I got the pro version and I said it was more expensive, but I was I was pretty specific. Like that's the phone that I want.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

And if that means that I keep it for three years instead of two years, then that's what I'm gonna do, and that's going to be fine. And my husband did not get the pro version, and so he it's time for him to upgrade. Right. I knew this. We had talked about this. I did not know that it would be arriving today. Oh that purchase had had been made. And I was for both of you or just him. For him, just okay. Okay, because I'm I don't need to replace my phone.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

It's okay. Great stuff because you got the pro. Because the pro. I mean, I have seen this time and time again in the last couple weeks, but like if you have the means, spending the extra money on the nicer thing very often repays you back. So it does.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

We have a saying in our house that price is long forgotten. And I know that like just that is a position of privilege. Oh, totally, totally, but also absolutely true. Right. It's it's that if I'm spending the extra money on the higher quality thing, but then it just works, and I don't have to worry about replacing or repairing or any of those sort of in-between maintenance things, it's it's worth getting that's the repayment. And I might, it's kind of like with shoes. I think shoes are kind of a key example where I buy shoes that are more expensive, and also I'm I'm on year 10 of those shoes. Right. And so the amount of money that I've spent over the last 10 years on shoes is actually probably less than if I were buying the $30 or $40 pair of shoes.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, I recently, like literally in the last two weeks, learned this lesson when selling some baby items on the marketplace and then fetching a pretty hefty price tag almost a decade after having purchased them because they look exactly the same as they did when we bought them. And not because they were like them. No, no, no, no. I use them for three kids in and out of other countries and all over the like use these in particular two things that I'm talking about, which is a hiking backpack for babies and a really, really, really nice jogging stroller. And um, yeah, I could not believe when I just threw a little bit of water on those things and just shined them up a little bit. I was like, oh, this looks like we've never used it. It was insane to me. And I was like, that's why you put money into certain things. Not everything deserves that level of attention. Exactly. I would put children's clothes in that category. Right. They are very, very expendable items, especially with one certain member of my children's posse. Um, they're just going to get destroyed, whether they're nice or not. So exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

And I think that's true, really, up until you reach a certain point. Like your feet aren't gonna grow anymore, and you're like relatively stable inside.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

I'd love to be able to say that, but I had to get rid of so many shoes after my kids.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

I remember your feet mercifully did not grow, but mine exploded.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

That's right. I forgot. I was not trying to rub salt in that particular wound. Yeah, I remember these this one pair of sparkly red shoes.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Anyway, so um, yeah, so good lessons all around.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Once possible, get the pro version, and also make sure that it's communicated. Because even if there was an expectation, you might catch somebody a little bit unawares if it if it hasn't been communicated. Yeah. And that is in no not digging. Like it I should have expected it because I knew that it was time, but I just like that loop had not been closed for me. Right. And it's fine. The arrival in the mail closed the loop for you. Yes, because I ordered a new pair of AirPods because my last like I have been I have been limping along on this pair of AirPods for almost a year. I mean, really limping, maybe even closer to two years. Like they're kind of hit or miss. Sometimes they charge, sometimes they don't. Oh no. Sometimes they don't. I mean, it's there are issues, but they're way out of warranty. And it doesn't make sense to try to, I don't, I don't think it makes sense to try to repair them. Maybe that also is showing the the privilege side a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

But I was really the opportunity cost of standing at the genius bar and doing all of that is not worth the cost that it would take to just order new ones.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I ordered new ones and they are arriving today. And I shared this news with my husband, and I'm very excited about them. And he's like, Oh yeah, my phone is coming too. And I was like, Oh, you got a new phone, cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, Apple's Apple's doing well off of you guys today. Exactly. Oh, silly business. Oh man. I on the other, I mean, not to like be all Samsung versus Apple, but I'm here to say, I've had the same pair of Galaxy headphones. I think for like four years. And they are still, apart from the fact that The little like rubber piece that keeps them in your ear has fallen out, but those things you can buy aftermarket, like little clip, like things that clip in there and make them all better, but they're still pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

So yeah, I'm not sure what the issue with my AirPods is, but they they have I think I've also had them for four or more years. And you'd want to with what they cost, either either side.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Totally, totally. But uh, and there was I did take them in for repair once. And it, I think there is some problem with the case itself that is like it has a it's not connecting to charge, but yeah, not at least not fully, because also sometimes it'll connect when they're in the case, and my phone will switch over to the air panel. That's not good. I'm not like they're not even in my ear. I don't know how that happens. Right. Yeah. It's one of those things that's like people from the past, if they were to time travel today, would be like, what is going on? What are all of these things that it's pure magic?

SPEAKER_01 23:08

It is magic. Bluetooth in particular is pure magic. And we as a society have done, you know, it is removed limitations that previously existed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's good stuff. Um, so I believe, I believe the floor is yours, madam, for an unpack

Rebranding A Coaching Practice

SPEAKER_01 23:31

today.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah. So I'll give you to unpack it. Yeah. I'll give you a little bit of the backstory. Well, you and our future listeners, uh-huh. A little bit of the backstory on this. Okay. But it's something that I'm noodling around with. Uh, and here we go. I recently kind of redid my work. I think we've talked about on the pod how the people that I thought I wanted to help in my coaching business, I'm finding that I the people I'm actually helping are in kind of a different group. And I've putting been putting a little bit of polish on that.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

We have definitely discussed that. Although I feel like it wouldn't go astray to do a a slight recap on that, only because I recently realized that I was not fully tracking what this transition really was for you. So I think our listeners could do maybe let's just all let's all keep up to date with this. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

So to recap, then initially when I w started my coaching practice, I thought I wanted to help moms in leadership specifically. And I did a lot of research, um, focus group conversations, you know, talking to people in that that niche and really found like, yes, people in this group need support. The need was there. It was evident. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

The need was one of your primary test cases of yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

The need was there, the language resonated. Yeah. And yet I was not getting clients, finding clients, or yes, uh, you know, contracting with clients in that category. And so then kind of you have two questions like, is it that the niche can't support it? Yeah. Or is it that Jess is the problem? And so I kind of like I got a little bit curious.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

That's a big question though. That's an important question to ask in a business. Like, am I the issue, or is the thing that I'm after not the business that it needs to be? Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Yeah. And so I I conducted a little bit more market research. I talked to some folks and they said, look, like it's not that I wouldn't hire you as a coach. If I were gonna hire a coach, I would hire you. It would be it. Like it would be you. But the idea of adding one more thing, yeah, right now is overwhelming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Moms and leadership not generally flush with cash or time.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Yes. And the other thing I found is that the leaders who are happen to be moms, when they're engaging on a kind of a professional space, they're not thinking mom first, typically. They're thinking leader first. Yeah. And I had a lot of language that was around mom first kind of stuff. And the places where I would really, I think, have the mom first language, I hated being on. So it was like, you know, mostly Facebook and mom's groups and yeah, all that stuff. And I also realized kind of like I wasn't as energized as I thought I was gonna be about helping moms and leadership solve this problem. So not only so there were a lot of things. And maybe energetically, like that was conveying, and people were picking up on that, even though I didn't even know that I was.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

I mean, if you are really, really hating the places that you're in and the rooms that you're speaking to, and like all of that, not the people, but like the venue, so to speak. Right. Um, that's it's probably going to be simple. I mean, nobody's gonna pick up on that better than moms and leadership. I'm sorry, but that's gonna be the most empathetic, most like clear group of people who's gonna who are gonna see that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yeah. Yeah. I I also think that it was, yeah, there were there were a lot of issues surrounding that. So when I started coaching on this platform, I found that more the clients I was having the best results with were men, which was very shocking. We definitely talked about that. I remember that distinctly. Yep. And when I looked at now that I had all of this coaching experience and kind of leading up until my PCC, to say really like, what am I good at doing with people? What results do they have? What kind of people have good results with me? And a couple of things kept coming up. One was this idea of leadership drift, which I think we've talked about specifically on the podcast, but it's that idea that the circumstance and not your values are the things that are determining your actions. And so in leadership, it shows up like showing up not as yourself or feeling like you have to lead from a place that is not authenticity. Right. And that could include office politics, like there are a lot of aspects. Yes. There's a lot of things going against you in that respect. Yes. The other thing that keep kept coming up was some tie to systems and systems thinking. And I have for a long time been a systems thinker. Right. That is my most nerdy intellectual place of enjoyment that I like. I love thinking about how all of these things are connected. Yeah. And specifically systems thinking and complexity, that that idea of taking that really, really tangled mess and being able to see the threads and pull the specific threads that cause the whole knot to untangle. Right. That was another theme that came out really clearly in the coaching that I enjoyed the most and that my clients had the most success in. And then kind of the last piece that has been coming up more recently, I would say, is just not having the skills, like the skills that got you here are not the skills that you need in the job you have. And so that theme kind of shows up everywhere. People who are searching for new jobs or trying to build new skills to get the new job. So um, those are the things.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

I think everybody has either been that person or seen that person. If you are in a professional setting or really any like workplace setting, you have either been or seen the people who have been put into a position that they were either not skills-wise equipped or more likely not emotionally equipped for. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

And so what that like putting all of those things together, what I noticed and kind of this shift that happened probably in the May-ish 2025 time

Beyond The Milestone Leadership Problem

SPEAKER_02 30:16

frame. Yeah. Is this this avatar will say somebody who wakes up one morning and is like, well, shit. I have been working really hard to climb the corporate ladder to show up here, and I got the promotion. Why isn't life suddenly awesome?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

And like not knowing what to do about that. In fact, why is it so much harder? And why do I not understand any of the rules that for the game that I'm playing? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

It's like, I thought I wanted that thing, I got that thing, and now what? And like even I proved I deserved that thing, even.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Whether it was just through an interview process or through a promotion process, you proved to somebody that you deserved that thing. And now I've proven that I deserved it and I don't know how to do with the thing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

And so the imposter syndrome comes in. Yeah. And the overproving comes in. So overcommitting, not having boundaries, like all of that stuff kind of ties into that. Yes. I, you know, kind of soft launched my rebrand and just started really talking about those sorts of things. And I still have this like, you know, people still come to me for parenting stuff, just not in like a moms and leadership sort of way. It just like sometimes the parenting stuff comes in. But what I realized when I got my master's, and what is like sinking in a little bit differently now is how much parenting is leadership. And so it like it's the ultimate leadership. Right. And this phenomenon that I'm experiencing is very much also present with new parents. And so I'm it's like variations on a theme. I think I can riff with it for for quite a bit. Yeah. I think that get that catches us up to like I had this, you know, uh this idea of like you got the promotion, you climbed the ladder, now what? Yeah. Like either how do you kind of unwind so that you are not can like still working, like overworking to prove something. Um and so that people can, you know, be themselves, lead authentically, and and show up as the person they need to be in this new job without completely dismantling the person they were.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Right, exactly. Because you don't want to completely throw the baby out with the bathwater either, because some of that is what got you to this place. Yeah. And so obviously there's some there's some aspects of that or behaviors or actions or whatever that were the building blocks to get you to the place where you're in now. Most of the time. I'd say like 99% of the time that's true. Yeah. Before there are there are there's some nephetism, there's some cronyism, there is some other stuff sometimes at play, but like generally speaking, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah. It's funny because I was just before our before we were recording today, I was chatting with a client who's considering a a career change. And they were saying how they they are where they are, and they're gonna continue being there until December. And then they're gonna kind of switch lanes into something like adjacent for another nine months, and then they're gonna do what they actually want to do. And I was like, well, why why not just do what you actually want to do? Why, why have that nine month period? Like, what's what's in there, what's going on in there? Yeah. And uh they said, Oh, actually, now let me rethink about all of that stuff that you that's coming up for me now. But we realized that that person was looking at I have this experience and these skills, and completely discounting this other experience and these other skills that were closer to where they wanted to go. And so I think I don't know, there's a lot to unpack in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

I mean, going back a little bit, I when you in this May 2025 timeframe that you're talking about, I genuinely thought you were going the direction of coaching executives with neurodivergent qualities.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Oh, well, that also seems to be it's a theme for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah. Yeah. But I thought that was gonna be what you were headed towards. And so everything you've said since that time frame, I've put in the framework of that. Oh, interesting. Which was not accurate. So I'm glad that I got myself, you know, framed out a little bit more clearly on what you were what you're changing towards.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah. I'm really glad you mentioned that because I also think in the category of neurodivergence, I think the biggest ones that come to mind are autism and AHD. Yep. As kind of like, you know, two very common neurodivergences.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

But also lend themselves to being high, highly functional in a corporate environment or in in a leadership environment as well for a myriad of reasons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Smart and capable and quick on their feet and lots of other things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Right. I would say not to overly paint a population, but especially I've noticed that with my ADHD clients, is they are their brains are working very, very fast. Right. And are they very, very high capacity. And they have other, you know, stumbling blocks or challenges, but sure. They, yes, they can see a wide field and they are, in my experience, more likely to be thinking about things and systems and connectedness than my neurotypical clients. Yeah. So I think that could definitely be a part of it, but it's not, I mean, there's also giftedness is a neurodivergence, which I didn't I didn't even think about that when I was thinking about neurodivergence. So yeah. I do think that also goes into the high capacity and it's going to show up in the senior leaders and executives that I want to be.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So maybe that's a different sort of offshoot that I I feel like you're particularly, I don't know if gifted is the right word, but like you have a particular knack for being able to speak to people who think about things differently than a typical person would. And so yeah, I thought given your penchant for being able to do that, I thought that's the where you were gonna go with it. But but I also love this. I mean, I don't think that you are here to be the knight in shining armor for me, but I will say you decided to pick up a niche of moms and leadership as soon as I became a leader. And you have changed into a you're a leader now, what role, just as I get a job as a senior leader in a new position. So I'm not saying there's anything connected to that, but I'm not not saying that.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Yeah, definitely not not saying that. It's like our growth has tracked together. It has.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

We live in parallel universes very purposefully.

unknown 37:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Which is nothing accidental about that.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Yeah. I mean, I do need guinea pigs for all of my all of my resources. Always happy to be and thinking through those things. So that is not what I wanted to unpack, but that makes very much like the energy. Yeah. You know, that's one of the reasons why this week has been so energetically positive is because I feel like finally all of these pieces that kind of ironically like were just kind of floating around, you know, the things that I'm really good at helping other people see and untangle, they were still like kind of up in the ether for me. Right. And now they feel very cohesive, very connected, very riffed. Even the parenting as a leadership, I think that like that's a way that I can keep my parents in, but also speak to them in a way that is like drawing the parallels between parenting and leadership, the family as an organizational unit. That was something that I picked up in my master's program. I can't remember if I ever sent you that video about being a five family.

Systems Thinking From Home To Work

SPEAKER_02 38:47

We had to do an organizational change project and we had to make a video, which was very outside of my comfort zone at the time. And I was like, well, I mean, it's COVID. Like, I'm there is not organizational change in my company right now. We are except that we're shrinking, and that felt really weird. And it was kind of like a keep the lights on, sort of like feeling. Right. It was very unpredictable in other ways, but there weren't like we were not investing in big change initiatives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, yeah. Nobody was because nobody knew if we were gonna be here in a year. Exactly. Like that's like we might all be dead, and we're just gonna have to just get on board with that concept.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

That was so it it was a challenging time to have an organizational change project. And I was like, wait a second, my family is an organizational unit and I'm a leader in it. And we have this really big change that's coming where we are going to move from being a family of four to being a family of five. And so I put together using organizational change principles, like all of the things that I was considering, and I basically change managed my family into becoming a five family. And I think it was actually very effective. Like they like helpful for your actual practical life, helpful for my actual practical life. And they say like 90% of change initiatives fail. And I'm happy to report that we are still a five family. So you didn't kick anybody out. Nobody has kick been kicked out. Everybody seems very smitten most of the time when they're not, you know, farting on each other's faces or whatever kids do. That'll happen.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah. So um I also think the other thing that makes it nice for those, for those leaders who are also parents, is it's a way to simplify, not that it's simple, but like when I think of the organizations that I've been a part of. Now, granted, I've been a part of very large companies, yes, but like the web, the interconnectedness, the vast enterprise of it all can be so overwhelming. When you when you're thinking about maybe say six people or less, you can you can use some of those concepts, but it's more clear. You're able to conceptualize it. It's kind of like what what they say, like you can't picture a million dollars. I can absolutely picture a million dollars. Okay. Well, maybe you. I don't know. But something along those lines, like you can't picture a certain number of something, a small, like what I would consider a small-ish number of something. Um, because your brain literally can't it can't go that big.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

A million dollars is actually like it is shockingly small. Oh, I don't know the exact number. Maybe it's a billion dollars. I don't know what it is, but I think a billion dollars would make sense.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah, there's some there's some number that's not even that big that you're like, yeah, my brain can't do that. Yeah. Um, and I feel like this isn't exactly that, but it is a little bit like that. If I was told to like organizational change kind of conceptualize even just corporate security, which is the organization I was in at IBM, I would, I would fall down pretty hard pretty fast. Yeah. Whereas if I'm thinking about it in terms of like, okay, husband, wife, kid, kid, kid, cat, you know, like whatever, I can, I can, I can do that, I can see that.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah. It's a way to kind of integrate and make the principles real. Because once you have that, you can scale it. But if you if you don't have that, it feels really, really hard to scale. Yeah. And I think you're absolutely right in that if you can start small, then you can start to think bigger. And that it definitely helped with me. And so all of this is background for what I wanted to unpack. I'm sorry.

Money And Coach Client Power

SPEAKER_02 42:36

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

I'm going, I'm literally grabbing every bunny trail that you toss at me and just straight down it.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Well, so the the bottom line of what I want to unpack is really the power dynamics of different groups of people in a business setting. And so I was, I mentioned how kind of the parenting angle sort of follows me, even though I'm, you know, declaring myself a executive and leadership coach now. And these are the beyond the milestone people that I want to be working with. And yet there's an opportunity to be talking to parents about their parenting and leadership skills and how those things translate. Yeah. And so earlier today, I met with somebody who's interested in doing that. And during our conversation, they asked me, like, okay, well, just let me know, you know, about how much you would charge for this thing and then go from there. And I was thinking, as I was reflecting back on the conversation, I was like, the power dynamic, I was I didn't show up as much of a coach in that conversation. I showed up as myself. And I was very, very authentic because if we're going to do business together, I want you to know who I am. And I just like my burden of proof for what I want to do business for this person was like, are the vibes right? Whereas I felt like me showing up in that space, that Person's burden of proof for whether or not they'd want to do business with me is much higher. Like, are they likable? Do they have the subject matter expertise? Can they show up in this way? Like, do they have something that I can repackage and sell and whatever else? And so I was thinking about that power dynamic. And then I was thinking about the power dynamic between coach and client, where the client has probably a higher burden of proof for the coach to say, like, are you the person that I want to pay money to to help me through this?

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Anytime is exchanged, it's going to change the dynamic drastically.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yes. Whereas my, like there, I do, I am kind of running calculations in my head. Like, is this person coachable? Yeah. Are the vibes right? Like, do I think I could help them? You know, all of those things are still present.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

And for you, because you're a very ethical person, you're also thinking, am I the best person to give this person what they're looking for?

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Yes. Yeah. Yes. I am thinking that. And I have told people, I'm not the person for you, but here's somebody who might be able to help. Right, exactly. So it's that's that's what I wanted to talk about. Is just like, what is what is it, what are the pieces of that power dynamic? And is it just maybe the issue is me and that like my burden of proof for if I'm gonna work with somebody is so much lower unless I'm paying them money. And then it's gonna be much higher. So, like, what role does money play in the power dynamic?

SPEAKER_01 45:34

It's funny, this sort of came up recently in my world as well. And it was along the lines of, and I'm gonna really oversimplify, but like I'm gonna step in such a big pile of crap by doing this, but um why women are paid less than men in the workplace.

Negotiation Gender And Psychological Safety

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Got that. Like, let's just take that off the table, sure. But one of the things that came up in a couple of different conversations with for me lately were that same power dynamic of like, I when I was looking for a job, the money aspect was not as important to me as learning something new, making sure that my voice mattered. And so when I'm entering a negotiation, which is the ultimate power dynamic Thunderdome, I am not looking to maybe get the most because if I know that that experience is the experience that I want to have, the money becomes sort of secondary-ish, also knowing that that's what I'm there for is the money. But like that, you know, you have the vibes thing that you mentioned, like and and other sort of soft pieces are super important and are probably more important to women, was my point in saying that. In that, like we don't, at least I do not have the take the money and run sort of mentality when it comes to my career. And it makes it so that when I'm entering into those power dynamics, I tend to take a little bit more of a beta role, even though I am not a beta person. Because I can see the ancillary benefits of someone or something or whatever it may be, such that the money is not the maybe the only thing that really matters.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Which is so interesting because we societally put so much pressure on money as a status symbol, money as a measure of success.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

It's safety too. There's like there's there's a huge amount of psychological safety that goes with money. From a like scarcity survival perspective, I guess, or also just like uh I get to go to the grocery store and not worry about swiping the card because it's gonna be fine, sort of just dynamics.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah, from a security, like financial stability perspective. Financial stability, exactly. Psychological safety and money are often inversely present in organizations, yeah. Or inversely related.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah. And so that's those are the different like interpersonal dynamics and who has the power, I think is so much. And feel free to challenge me on this and tell me that I'm making it up, but like I think it's so much a mindset. But it's a mindset that two people or more have to be in on together. Everyone kind of has to agree about what the power dynamics are completely subliminally. Like, no one is saying you're in charge of this because you have the power in this situation. And you know, like no one's spelling it out, but you're everyone is feeling it at the same time. It's this completely unspoken, most of the time unspoken, like agreement between people. You are the person who has more power in the situation, and I am not. And when those other people go into that and they're not supposed to be the one with the power, but they decide they have the power. I feel like a lot of times it kind of works. It kind of works to project the power that you may or may not actually have. And you can shift the dynamic that way.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

I do think there's a lot in here. I don't know that there, so I think when we talk about power, a lot of times, especially in the US, we're talking about power over and who, you know, who's the decision-making authority or you know, influencer. Yeah, exactly. But I think there is a more subtle way in which we demonstrate power. And that is the gravitas that you're talking about. And coming into that conversation, like I don't I didn't check in with that person to see what their read on the power dynamic was.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

But I also didn't feel like I was uh on the losing end of a power dynamic either. Yeah. And so it it is.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

And that's funny to me because when you described this conversation, I would have said that you had the power in this relationship because you have the thing that he's looking for. Yeah. You're not looking to partner with somebody on this, he needs somebody to partner with this. So you are the person who actually has the consumable or the, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

But at the same time, he's the person who has who gets decided.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Hey, yeah, exactly. He's the one who has the money coming in theoric theoretically, yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

And he has a lot of people who are willing to contribute. And so what's gonna make him choose me? And I think maybe that's kind of kind of going back earlier in the conversation of just being like, just gonna see what happens and like not put any pressure or power over it, but just like you just do your thing. And if somebody wants it, then great. And if they don't want it, then fine. Like it's not yeah, there doesn't need to be that. I think maybe desperation is too strong a word, but that like that also kind of might be.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

No, that's a huge factor of it because I think that is what gives your power away. Let's say I was looking for a job and really, really, really, really needed a paycheck. I will be giving most of my power to the people interviewing me. Yeah. If not all of it, because I really need a paycheck. If I do not desperately need a paycheck, that interview process is a hundred percent two ways. Prove to me why I should choose you as a company that I work for. So those power dynamics I think have been a little bit flipped as of late in the job market. And I mean it goes flippy floppy all the time, but yeah, I think I think you're right in that there's so let's see, let's let's recap here. We have money dynamics that that contribute to the power, we have projection and confidence dynamics that contribute to the power that you have. We have basic needs that contribute to the power. And what else? What am I missing? Those are those are well, I think gender does play a role here. Okay, so tell me about that. How does it play a role?

SPEAKER_02 52:41

In that I think again, stereotypically, uh-huh, women will be more accommodating than men in in it in any sort of negotiation because of the non-tangibles we'll say that women may be considering. Whereas men, especially in like a salary negotiation, yeah, might be looking to index on salary performance as the most important thing. Yeah. Not not always, not all the time. And that's why it's important to kind of when entering into a negotiation to say like what are the things that really matter to you? Because yeah, that one client that took a 20% pay cut, but now gets to walk their dog every day. Yeah, like for them, that was a totally worth it trade-off. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

And I I mean, is that giving away your power or is that taking your power?

SPEAKER_02 53:37

For that person, I think they got a lot of power back. Right. Because they have more feedback. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Exactly. Yeah, and agency is one of those incredibly finite resources that like gets very much underplayed in our extremely capitalist society.

Autonomy Values And Leadership Drift

SPEAKER_02 53:57

But it is one of, I would say, agency autonomy, like that's one of our psychological needs. Yeah. As people, and so ask any three-year-old. We have a we have a very three-year-old, three-year-old. And it's it is a lot. Um, the most not to totally side tangent because I know we're close up to our time, but for some reason, his current love is sharp objects. Oh god. So specifically the last thing you should give a three-year-old. I know. Specifically, or like button batteries. I'm like, no, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

You can't everything that will instantly kill him. I know.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

And so we had a wonderful exchange about the nail clippers, yeah. That he found, didn't know he could reach. Apparently, he can reach things on high shelves now. Found them, was playing quietly, may have accidentally cut himself. Not not big cuts, but like, yeah, ow, you know, ooh, that's sharp. And I we had a whole conversation about, I said, You can you may hold this, but I will not let you use them. And you may not trim your own fingernails. And he said, I will never ever trim my own fingernails, mama. I just want to hold it. And I said, Okay, I will let you hold it. It is a fun shape. And he said, Yes, I love rectangles. And that was the whole conversation. But yeah, he just like he needed he needed to be able to say whatever his comfort object was in the moment, which in this case was a pale.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

I mean, I vastly prefer nail clippers over an ice pick, so totally, yeah, yes. I remember actually, weird thing. I grew up with an ice pick in my house. Not because we were the family that had like block ice in a, but we had one of those like antique refrigerators that literally you would stick a big block of ice into, and you would need an ice pick to like get a chunk off if you needed to. And the ice pick literally hung very near to the antique refrigerator. And I remember oftentimes playing with it. Yeah, it was a very fun shape because it's long and it's pointy and it's pretty and it's got a nice wooden handle and fun to grip. It's a wonder that thing did not make it in somebody's foot or arm or something at some point. Totally. Yeah. So anyway, autonomy to land the plane on the power dynamics. Yes. Um, yeah. I think I think my favorite thing about power dynamics is witnessing them, watching them, being aware of them. I am not really one that likes to disturb the science experiment that is ongoing. I just I enjoy letting it play out. And but I think this is one of those instances where you really, really have to check your values and check your autonomy and check your um your authenticity of yourself, because this is one of those really tricky instances in life, as there are so many, where those things can go off track before you can even see that they're off track. All of a sudden your values are being questioned and your authenticity is being, you know, undone in a moment because power can so quickly shift those things and make it so that you can't even see it when it's gone.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

We will bring it right back to the leadership drift phenomenon, which is one of the things that I've been working so hard to uh define. But yes, totally. And I think as leaders, especially, we have to assume that there is always a power dynamic. Yeah. Whether that is having you know, perceived favoritism, um, disparate impact, that's a big part of the power dynamic. Like, how are these decisions impacting one employee over another employee? Even, you know, time lunch with the boss, like that can be a thing. What are we paying? What do we have the credit card for? You know, when I was buying lunch for my employees, like that is part of the power dynamic. And so being able to see that they're there and really be cognizant of it when communicating, that the power dynamic is going to, it's going to be a lens that sits between you and anybody you are communicating with.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

And everything you say will be distorted through the lens of the power dynamic. Both ways, both ways. Both ways. Exactly. Yeah. And it's maybe not prismatic, you know, it's maybe like the the glass that you see in the funhouse glass. I was gonna say like the old pain, you know, that that are like thicker on the bottom, slightly, slightly wobbly, but but it depends. I mean, it could be a fun house mirror, depending on how big that power differential is.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

And something that's coming up for me from our conversation that I really appreciate is that we are very it's very easy to see a power dynamic that we're not a part of.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

And it is not as easy to see the power dynamic that exists within, like from our perspective, and how how we carry ourselves could change how somebody else perceives the power

Seeing Power Dynamics As Leaders

SPEAKER_02 59:20

dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Yeah. So thank you. Yeah, for sure. Well, it's a good thing to unpack. I I feel like I say this all the time, but like I feel like we could have a three-part series on something as big and meddlesome as power dynamics. So maybe we'll return to this at a later date, but I have loved unpacking it and thinking about it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Thank you so much for unpacking with me. And yeah, I think we do have some unpack follow-ups on both mistakes and power dynamics. So maybe those will be some of the themes in our standard state. Season two. I know it's so exciting.

Takeaways And Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 59:58

All right, Jess. Thanks, Lise. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Yep. Bye. Bye. Hey, Jess and Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

We've got stories to share. From our heart, Georgia, lots to unpack the every week, you'll want them bit, that deep to life with just a list. Do it every week, you'll want them bit, that deep to life with just a list.