Wrong Turns Can Still Get You There

Mistakes get a bad reputation, but what if they’re doing the job we secretly need them to do? We follow a winding path from ramen firsts and dressing-room nostalgia to the oddly grounding experience of sitting on real furniture while planning a cozy book nook. Those everyday choices tee up a deeper theme: when we step out of autopilot, we collect better information and we tell ourselves better stories about what we’re doing and why. 

Jess shares a pop-up think tank experience focused on the ROI of soft skills, sparking a conversation about leadership, coaching, and why communication and emotional intelligence still need to be “proven” to decision-makers. We riff on the idea of bringing back salon-style spaces for real intellectual conversation, plus a surprisingly practical tangent on THC drinks, menu jargon, and why clear disclosure and informed consent matter more than people think. 

Then we get to the heart of it: mistakes, regret, and the fear that keeps us trying to be perfect. We ask what a “mistake” even is, why some outcomes create shame, and why repeated “mistakes” often signal a boundary we’re afraid to hold. Along the way we borrow a powerful metaphor from GPS navigation: when you take a wrong turn, it doesn’t scold you, it simply recalculates. We leave you with a kinder framework for personal growth, self-trust, and making the best decision you can with the information you have. 

If this hits home, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s hard on themselves, and leave a review so more listeners can find us. What’s one mistake you’ve been judging that you’re ready to reframe?

Transcript

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Jess And Lisa Kick Things Off

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We got stories to share. From a heart to your years, lots to unpack there. Do it every week. You won't wanna miss that different life with Jess and Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

We are navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. Hi. Hi. I am dying to know what you're unpacking.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

But oh wow, that was I know. That was a zero to 60. I know.

unknown 1:01

I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I'm so I'm so energized today.

Ramen Comfort Food And Real Stores

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I told you. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you're energized. I was actually down in your neighborhood today, and I don't necessarily need to unpack it, but I did I did two very pretty unconventional things today. Well, kind of three. One, I had Japanese ramen for the first time. I'm not a ramen person usually. That's not really my go-to soup, I guess. I'm just not really maybe just not a soup person. That was awesome.

unknown 1:39

That was so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I've been like feeling like a tickle in the back of my throat. And so I tried Japanese ramen at a at a place, and it like that's what they do. And um, I was like, oh, I get this. I get it now. It's super yummy and comfort foody and like all the things.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I've never had Japanese ramen.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah, um, I can tell you where to go, just down the road from you. I think I know the place. We almost ate there once. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We probably yeah, same place, I think. Yeah. Okay. So it was great.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Um, I mean, I've had homemade ramen.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Well, yeah, like everyone's had that. Like, oh, not that. Not that.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Okay. Not I mean, I have had I have that, had that. Yeah, of course. Yes. But I there is a recipe for flank steak ramen in my favorite cookbook.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Well, I now love ramen and I already loved flank steaks, so uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

I mean, the flank steak was exceptional. Like I it was it was the best part for sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

The maybe my favorite fan of like one definitely top three cut of beef for me is flank steak. Fascinating. Oh yeah, and it's like not really considered to be a very high quality piece, I think generally. It's very flavorful though. Oh yeah. So anyway, so I did that. That was new, but that's not really what I the thing that I mentioned that I wanted to mention. Um I went to a department store. Oh my gosh. In real life, oh my gosh, and tried on clothes in a dressing room. What? I know, I know, I'm gonna it was kind of like it was almost like a like a fever dream from like eons ago, where I was like, oh, and then the lady she takes your stuff and she puts it in a dressing room, and then you go back there, and there's like a pedestal to stand on to like try out the stuff. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

So you and I have gone to a department store and tried on clothes.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yes. Although I feel like that was I don't know, for some reason, I feel like that was different. We were on a very specific mission very fine jeans in that case, yeah, which we did not. We did not, no. Um, we did very poorly. Uh, or rather, the department store did poorly to sell us anything that we were willing to buy. But so this was I have a wedding coming up that I'm going to, and I don't have many weddings in my life. And this one has like, it's not a it's not it's not one of those dress codes that you like roll your eyes at. You're like, oh my god, how am I gonna find something in this really specific aesthetic or clear scheme or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

I'm gonna roll my eyes at pretty much any dress code, but go on.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

It's just a suggestion, it's not a requirement. You could turn up in a black cocktail dress and nobody would say anything. But because it's being held at this like really quirky place, they wanted people to wear like bright colors and big florals and kind of like stretch their legs with that kind of stuff. And so I really wanted like I was like, I can I can wear colors, I like color and stuff like that. So yeah, um, I thought, well, you know, department stores have that kind of thing. So I went to a Nordstrom, and lo and behold, they did have a lot of that kind of thing. Wow, and I tried on probably like five or six dresses and um didn't like any of them, and I left. But but even more surprising than going to a department store, I went to a furniture store.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Who are you and what have you done with my bestie?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

That was very bizarre because like a salesperson like comes up to you and follows you around and like tells you features of things, it's not at all like Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

What kind of furniture are you well in the market for?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Uh,

Building A Book Nook In Real Life

SPEAKER_02 5:30

as you know, one of my goals for 2025, which we are still in, just in the latter little bit, is to put my book nook. We're both kind of working on libraries right now. That's a neat little parallel. It is. Um, mine is a just a wee one in the corner of my room, but I would really, really like a Shay's lounge. That's like in my that's my like vision board for how this little nook looks. Um, but the space that I'm working with is very tight. And so it is requiring some creativity in that respect. And I was like, maybe I just need to go sit on some furniture rather than seeing it in 2D and pretending that I know what it looks and feels and you know how it does all the things, I just need to go and do it. So I did, and it was not an unpleasant experience. It was a little bizarre. The last time I did that was when we moved back from Korea and we had to literally fill our entire house with furniture. So we went to that exact furniture store at least half a dozen times just to get furniture and rugs and all the things, and that's where most of our furniture came from, to be fair. Well, that's pretty cool, yeah. Yeah, and it also made me realize that I've been shopping on Amazon a lot more because the prices were like oh my god, like they were like real furniture prices, not Amazon furniture prices. So or like Wayfair or something like that. So I still have to kind of narrow down exactly what I want. Um, I was also looking at wallpaper over the last couple days because I want to put some wallpaper up in this area just to really like define it. So yeah. So that's what I that was that was my day today. That's pretty real life places and touching real life things. You went somewhere and touched grass, that's but it wasn't it wasn't actual grass, it was furniture grass, exactly. And it was with my mom, so it was really fun. It was just kind of like an outing day, which was cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

That is really cool, and now that you have a sense of that and maybe some brands, I don't know which furniture store you went to, but they're they may carry brands that you can find elsewhere, and maybe Overstock will have it or something. Right, you know, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

I do need to kind of figure that out. But so it's like we don't we I don't know if I want like I still have to figure out the exact style that I want because I could go one direction or I could go another direction, and so trying to figure that out. Um, but yeah, it's good. I mean, I'm still not any really closer to doing that, and I didn't buy any dresses, but I already had some Amazon dresses that I had um found, and I liked them better than anything at Nordstrom, and they probably cost not oh nearly as much. Not nearly. There were some dresses I tried on today that were well over $400. And I was like, it's a lovely dress. It would have to make me look like Heidi Klum for me to pay that much for a dress.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I don't have a mental image of Heidi Klum. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

I think of a supermodel, any supermodel you okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yeah, I don't think any dress could make me look like that because I am well exactly yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah, Heidi Klum is like 6'2 or something. Oh my gosh. So anyway, so um didn't purchase anything, but was uh was a fun, kind of tactile little day that I had.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

That's outstanding. Yeah. I went

Pop Up Think Tanks And Soft Skills

SPEAKER_00 9:07

to a pop-up think tank this morning.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Oh pop-up think tank? Mm-hmm. So okay, when I think of think tank, I think of a like NGO that people like really smart people are recruited into from Ivy League schools, and they literally sit around and solve the world's problems, and that it turns into something that eventually goes to Congress and stuff. That's what I think of. Yeah. Okay. So pop-up think tank is what that is.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So it's a 90-minute focused conversation on one thing. One topic, one topic. Uh-huh. The one I went to today was on the soft skills return on investment and how to make the case for soft skills.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Uh I'd love to see your notes on that because I feel like I have to make that justification all the time.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And so we explored a whole bunch of other stuff, but basically, this there's some they put it together and it's 90 minutes. They give a little bit of kind of the problem statement and and the various components of that. And then they it's like getting your brain power into one space. And so there were, I think, 70 of us in this room. Whoa. And they they were asking questions such as I like, I the thing that's coming to mind is I like, I learn, I wonder, or whatever. But it's um, they asked you those questions for kind of individual participation, and then they send you out into breakout rooms focused on one specific question. And people are just kind of feeding this form with all of the thoughts and ideas about what is working, and what do we need senior executive leaders to know to be able like, and how can we get them there to make a case for this? And so it was it was very, it was very cool, very structured, very impactful and very energizing, which I was not expecting because it's you're in rooms in a room with 70 strangers. But the idea is is kind of the same as what you described, is like get a bunch of smart people in the room talking about big ideas and what we can do about it, and then the company will kind of put everything together. And I think, I mean, it seems like it would be a key case for a white paper of some sort.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Exactly, some sort of deliverable to come out of it that people can then use and take back for their own purposes, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

And I don't know all of the intricacies of how it works, but I get the sense that a company will kind of sponsor this pop-up think tank, and they get the results, but it's and then people like me, I'm donating my time, yes, but I'm also networking with really smart, like-minded people. I'm finding ways to kind of frame the problem in my own business use case, and so it there's definitely it's mutually beneficial.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Two questions one, did you know the problem that you're gonna be solving for in advance? Yes. Okay. Second, is there some sort of barrier to entry for deciding who gets to participate in the think tank? Because I feel like if you're going to be thinking big thoughts and having discussions that require some level of intellectual background, that you'd want to make sure that the people in those discussions were capable of having those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yes. Okay. I well, I understand what you're saying. No is the answer, I think. Okay, but I I think that barrier you're describing is kind of self-selecting. Like people who aren't gonna want to be in a room with 70 strangers talking about big ideas and solving the world's problems for free, like they are not gonna self-select into that group. And that's probably true. And I get the sense that most of the people, at least most of the people that I interacted with were already coaches or facilitators or consultants, like in this space. And so wow, yeah. I don't know how they advertise it to kind of get those minds in the room. I don't know how I found it.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

I I can't remember all sorts of things. I don't know. I don't I really don't know how you find all the things that you do. I feel like at least a couple times a week, you're like, I'm doing this thing that no one's ever heard of before. Right, but clearly 70 other people had heard of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

So that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Incredible. I love that idea. I mean, it's essentially grad school, but quick. It's like a quick little grad school like snippet. It'd be a really good way to determine whether or not you wanted to go to a grad school, actually. Like, do you like sitting around talking about big things like this and then writing papers on them? If you do, grad school might be for you.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah.

Bringing Back Salons With Clear Consent

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I I have a client who we were talking about this idea of being a polymath specifically. Uh-huh. Just kind of an ab obscure term. Yeah, obscure term that I didn't know what it meant until I looked it up. But it's basically, you know, in in the olden days, you'd kind of imagine people who would have a glass of brandy and they'd be sitting around talking about these big ideas and kind of having it was the the precursor to a think tank in the modern world.

unknown 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

And of course, there's all sorts of stuff that's very problematic about who was invited to those groups and what sorts of things, you know, all of that.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

But this diversity was not a key component of those discussions.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Certainly not.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

No, yes, certainly not.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

But he was talking about wanting that kind of environment of intellectual stimulation, about just talking about things that really matter with other people who also care about those things. Yes. And there are a couple of groups that I have found that do just that. And this one crossed my radar again, not sure how. And so I I sent it to him.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

I'm like, this sounds totally up your alley.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Kind of like an old-fashioned salon. Yes, exactly. Right. Which we don't really do anymore. And I I am a big fan of bringing them back.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Uh maybe this is part of our business plan. We've got the tie tolly concept. Yeah. Maybe it's like tie tolly by day, yes, and intimate conversations by night. Like you show up, you have a phone, your your phone is checked into a little locker, like you are unreachable during that time, almost like a speakeasy sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Like intellectual speakeasy.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, exactly. But also cocktails, but all absolutely. And mocktails and mocktails.

unknown 16:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

We're in Maryland, so maybe maybe a THC tale. Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah.

unknown 16:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

You have to watch out for those because they are just available now in different places. I don't, I don't know if you've seen them on menus, but I've seen them on menus at restaurants. And like I almost ordered one on accident because I didn't understand the jargon that they used.

unknown 16:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

What restaurants? Cocktails, mocktails. It was one in Maine when we were on vacation. Oh. It was cocktails, mocktails, and then it there was some word, and I don't remember what the word was, and then there were some things listed underneath. Come to find out, those are laced with something. I don't I don't exactly know because I don't partake in any of this stuff, but like that could very be that could be really problematic for people who don't realize that they're ingesting that, say they have drug tests or something like that coming up. Like to me, I'm and maybe if I had ordered it, the right waitress would have said disclaimer, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Right, exactly. I'm thinking about it. You know, my brain goes to risk and liability kind of naturally. And so I'm thinking what what kinds of things would we need to have in place to serve such a beverage? Yeah. And I think like some sort of informed consent of yes, by the way, you know that what you are ordering contains THC, and these are the things that you're agreeing to, like a whole harmless class.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, I need to look up exactly what it what the word was that they use, but apparently it's a in people who do partake in that sort of substance, it's a well-known word. I just am not, I'm not in that. That is not my zeitgeist that I swim in. So um anyway, I would, yeah, salon. I think maybe like a different theme every night of the week. Like Mondays are music and Tuesdays are technology. I know I'm doing an alliterative thing, I kind of did it on accident, but anyway, I think that'd be cool.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Wacky Wednesdays, throwback Thursdays, frugal Fridays, everything's half off. Wow, the business plan writes itself.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah. Anyway, pretty cool. I do I do like a good a good salon. And I didn't even know what a salon was until I started watching the show Dickinson. And that's like a big part of that show is this idea of intellectual conversation and like who's in the room for these intellectual conversations. And at the time it was used as a social climber opportunity because if you were in a salon that also other people, other thinkers, other politicians or newspaper people or whatever were also in there, then that necessarily increased your network to those important people.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Right. You were rubbing elbows with exactly the the right people in quite to help advance you.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

And to even be the person to host a salon to have important people come, that's a big deal to be that person to get those people in there.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, that's kind of the vibe that my client described. Was just a place where people could talk about ideas and not about other people and not about necessarily themselves, but yeah, more like a an intellectual, maybe even a book club or you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Yeah, I think a book club could be like a sort of modern day parallel a little bit. Yeah. I don't know that every book club really strives to be intellectual, but I'm sure some do. Some do. Absolutely. I'm not a part of any book clubs, so I'm really just an outsider on that one. And never have been, actually.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I am a part of one. I know. And it's pretty awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

But we read all you guys are really walk the line between like just for fun and also literary. I think you guys do a little bit of those.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

I think we're mostly on just for fun, but the the women who are there are really lovely and smart and yeah, love to talk about things in in a more serious, not serious as in not fun, but in a maybe, maybe the intellectual, I don't know, intellectual doesn't feel like the right word either, but but just in a like not flippant sort of way. Yeah. Not vapid. Like it's deeper.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

The way you described it makes sense. Like it's talking about things, not people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or ideas. Yeah. Maybe one day I'll find find myself a book club like that. They are pretty great. Yeah. So um you asked about unpacking. I know.

What Counts As A Mistake

SPEAKER_02 20:41

I think we really um took a turn around the block before we got back to this.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Well, it I think there were, you know, some mini un unpacked fodder in there, fuel or fodder. But I have I feel like I have been waiting since you told me that you had this unpacked topic. Yeah, waiting with beta breath.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

So this one might even be like a series. It's so big. Okay. And I genuinely I don't even have like it's just something that is rolling around. Did you ever have okay? I remember very distinctly in my grandparents' house. So this is my dad's parents, they had this um kind of like a coffee table puzzle. And so it was a box, a wooden box, and on top of the box sat a um a lid that could pivot back and forth, and it was a maze on top. And the idea was to get the marble from one part of the maze to the other part of the maze. And so you would kind of pivot this um, this lid back and forth, and the marble would go around the maze. I feel like this topic is sort of that for me. It's just been sort of running around my brain in different ways. And I keep seeing little pieces or glimmers. Of this topic come up in different ways, like through my kids or through my job search, or through my relationships, or whatever, like, or just life in general. And so the general topic is mistakes. Okay. And so I was, I was thinking about this idea of, and this is why it's a bigger topic than we could possibly cover in one time. But like, what if the meaning of life, what if the purpose for existing is to make mistakes? Like, what if that's the reason? And so I was like sort of just contemplating and meditating on this idea of like, what if we're here for the express purpose of making and correcting as many mistakes as possible? Not just on an individual level, but on a societal level. And so I've just been sort of picking up all of these little pieces of like mistakes being made and how like the results of mistakes and the growth of penicillin mistakes exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah. So thinking about it on a personal level for sure, because I'm I, you know, I'm a human, so I make mistakes. And you know, sometimes big. I mean, I think this also goes into the topic of regret as well. And like, what if I've always felt like that the whole like, I don't regret anything. Like, I never understood that. I thought that was just I never resonated with me. I'm like, yeah, there's stuff I regret. There's stuff I would definitely do differently. But I think the whole purpose behind I don't regret anything is because I learned XYZ from that mistake. And so now I'm better, whatever, from it. I don't know that that's ever the case, though.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Hmm. Well, a couple of things are coming to mind for me. The first is how are we defining mistake?

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Um, good question. I would say an unintentional action or a misstep, maybe like a miscalculation. I don't know. I think those are three different things.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

There's so many complex mistakes that are um so I but I think with the definition of mistake, I mean, one aspect of it is the unintentionality of the mistake. Mistakes are unintentional. Mistakes also have an undesirable outcome, but they can also have an unintended positive outcome. So was that a mistake then?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

No, I think it's still a mistake. It's still a mistake, but it's like, well, what if okay, so I guess what I'm thinking of is like these complex mistakes where you get a negative outcome and a positive outcome because there's like the mistake is so big that there are knock-on effects beyond like ripple effects beyond that initial set of like A plus B equals C sort of reaction.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Mm-hmm. I I think I'm hesitant even in my labeling of things as mistakes. Yeah. It's a tricky thing to do. Right. I think I think there's some aspect of a mistake that is accidental, which kind of ties into the unintentional part of the mistake. But even just labeling something as a mistake, I don't think most of the time we label positive outcomes as mistakes. We would call it a happy accident. Right. Or I I don't know, we kind of joked about penicillin and Worcestershire sauce, but yeah, like those were things that we just we didn't know and we found out. And then so technically speaking, like it was unintentional, but some of the best things in life happened from unintentional happenstance.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

And so that's that's kind of what I was contemplating. Like, well, if we went through life and every time we made a mistake, we kind of congratulated ourselves or something. Like if that was the the purpose was to like just mess up as much as you can, kind of okay. I know that we talk about AI a lot, but if you're training the model, let's say, going back to kind of simulation theory, something like that. If you're training the model, then it makes sense to make as many mistakes as possible because then the correction of those goes into building the model that will then be theoretically better as a result.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah. Hence the what if the purpose of life is to do that? Like, what if we are all just training a model? Yes, and all of these unique context situations are building the granularity of the world. And so, yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

And so, like the second sort of thing that came to me from this is you know, if if there's any chance that that's the case, then we should be really gentle with ourselves. Even if we're not congratulatory, we should be gentle. And so I saw this parallel the other day. I

GPS Recalculating And Self Compassion

SPEAKER_02 27:24

don't know whether it was a video or something I read or something I saw, whatever. And it was about um like Google Maps or GPSs, because when you make a wrong turn using a GPS device, it just says recalculating. Uh-huh. And it just finds a way. Yeah, you have to go around the block, and oh, there's a roundabout, and oh, you're back right where you either set out to be, or you took a different path entirely, and now you're going the same direction, but you just got a different way of getting there because the GPS will always reroute you back onto your path, and it will do it in a way that is very much like, whoops. Yeah, for sure. It won't even judge you about it. It's not even like it doesn't even get mad about it, it just says, like, oh, here we go, going this way.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah. I so many thoughts are happening for me about this. Let's have it. The one of the first is that uh just the framing of mistakes are a part of life and we don't need to beat ourselves up about them. If we if we frame it as my job is to make mistakes and find out and learn, because I think mistakes are a part of learning, and that's maybe the differentiator of when a mistake becomes regretful is whether or not there was a lesson learned from it. And how to kind of recalculate in the future. So that reframing just feels kinder to me. It feels like that mistakes are not something that we need to be afraid of making because they're just gonna happen. And it's really kind of like an unintended consequence. They're not mistakes, they're unintended consequences, and we can only forecast what we can forecast. And there are so many variables, as you mentioned, that we just can't control or account for when we're making that decision. So that was a thought. I also think the there's an element in here of destination and journey that is if you know where you're going, there are going to be a lot of different paths that you can take to get there. Right. And some things that you do will cause you to kind of hop tracks and take a different path.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Well, and the longer the journey, the more options to get there. If you think about it in terms of a map, like if you're going from here to Beijing, there's an unlimited number of routes that you could take because it's a long, long, long way away. If you're going from here to Huawa, there's maybe two, you know, you're going like you're, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

And so, but we have choice in where we are putting that destination marker or dropping that pin. Right. And that I think is really, really cool. And so if you're looking at the entirety of our lifetime, the goal is to make as many mistakes and learn as much as possible and and all of that, then we have a lot of opportunity to do that. And and if but if our goal is to hit my revenue target this quarter, then that's you know, shorter timeline, maybe less opportunities for deviation. Right. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a college boyfriend where I said it was kind of a predestination conversation. I was like, what if we like in our inner knowledge, like in our bodies, we know that what our path is and the path that we need to take to get to where we're going.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

We don't consciously know it, but like we instinctually know it or something. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Like there is a thing that is right for each of us. And I now, you know, 20 years later, I'm looking at it as maybe more than 20 years later, I'm I'm looking at it as as like being true to oneself and knowing the things that are in line with our our values and our values for ourselves. And then when we take those left turns instead of right, or we miss our exit, there's a feeling that wells up that's like something about this isn't right. And I need to course correct or I need to see where it goes. And all of that comes down to our attachment to the destination. Because if we are attached to that destination, we're gonna be trying really hard to get back on track. Whereas if we're attached to the journey and learning and and growing as much as we can, yeah, then it we will naturally come back to ourselves and maybe we'll end up in the same place at the same destination anyway. It's just where our level of attachment is. Right. Right. He told me I was wrong. He was like, no, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Oh, okay. Well, I was like, I don't have an open mind, buddy. Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Well, maybe maybe then things just feel wrong because they feel wrong. Like, I don't know. I was just trying, I was trying to explain like what is that feeling? Because when I stepped foot on my college campus, I knew that that was where I was supposed to be. And I have made decisions since then where I had that feeling ahead of time where I was like, this is not right, this is not the right thing to do, and I did it anyway. Right. I mean, that might fall into some definition of mistake, except that it was intentional.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

So I don't know. Yeah, we can't we have to throw out intentionality from that. I guess that doesn't really meet the definition. But I I think I've had I've had moments where I felt super, super sure about things. And then looking back, I go, uh, there probably was a better choice. And I don't know whether I wasn't looking for it or wasn't being guided by the right instinct, whatever, you know, presupposing we have different instincts within us and we can listen to one or the other rather than just having one set of principles or one set of guiding things. And also remembering that our guiding principles change over time. Like, I don't think I have exactly the same value system or priorities that I maybe did at 18 than I do at 40. Yeah. Um, so I like the idea of like I'm trying to like noodle around some some idea of like what it would be to be guided by a GPS versus like being guided by a map or like in the middle there. Remember when

MapQuest Memories And Missing Information

SPEAKER_02 33:49

we had map quest?

unknown 33:51

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

And it was like a list of directions that time that I told you exactly how to get from one to the other, but you had to follow the written directions very closely.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

You had to know your starting place and your direction. And your ending place. Yes, exactly. I spent many hours lost in DC trying to find an apartment.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

And that night I went back to my friend's house and printed out all of like I plotted all of the apartments I was going to visit the next day, and I plotted them in MapQuest and I printed out directions because I just I DC is I I'm gonna put out there that it is the easiest city to get turned around in, especially if you're driving, if you're walking, maybe not so much, but like the way that that city is laid out is the most confusing and most like so many one ways, so many, like the whole hub and spoke model is just so oh god, it's so bad.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

It makes a lot of sense once you know the trick, but if you're if you're brand new into the city, you're not you're not gonna have a good time. Yeah. And even I I bought a map, like a laminated Washington, DC map, yeah to keep in my car because I just didn't, you know, it was before smartphones, it was before GPS, right, and at least before it was widely available. And I remember looking for Washington Street. Oh dear, but it was on the crease, so all I could see was Hinkton. And I looked for so long, I was like, I don't see Washington, it's just not here.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

I mean, I feel like there is a metaphor in there for for making mistakes, like when you just don't see something is obscured from your view. Is that a mistake? If you don't have all the pieces of information and you make a choice, right? Which is that is that factor into making a mistake? I mean, it is a mistake, but it's certainly not as much of a fault. I mean, maybe there's like a certain percentage of it that has to do with your own fault, or maybe it doesn't. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

This is so relevant to a lot of the work that I've been doing on myself around mindset and and reframing, because I had a lot of I should have known better. I had I had a voice from very, very young age saying, What were you thinking you should have known better? And it just that became ingrained in me. And so I think that kind of popped open this hyper-vigilance of like, what are all of the things that I need to be considering? How can I look around that corner? And if if I looked around that corner and I didn't see anything and then I turned and ran face first into the wall, yeah, then I was beating myself up over it. And so I think this idea of which ties into regret of you're making the best decision you can with the information you have, and just trusting that the information that's available to you is is the information that you're considering. And of course, hindsight is 2020 because you have all of the information available to you, you can make a different call. And that can you can take that learning and say, okay, so next last time I didn't know that if I did this, these other things would happen. Now I know that if I do that, these other things will happen. And so I need to take that into consideration the next time I'm making a decision. And you're still not gonna have perfect information because the situation has changed. Yeah, but you're getting closer to it.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

So I mean, that's I think that's an ideal outcome, is and one that I find like sweat inducing because like the idea of making a mistake once, learning from it, and never doing it again is like terrifying to me. I think to me, I see, at least in my life, I see me making a lot of the same mistakes over and over and over again and not learning from them. And I don't know, like how does that fit into the the values or the guiding light or the journey sort of metaphor that we're drawing up about this? Like making those same mistakes over and over and over again. What does that mean?

Boundaries Repeated Patterns And Fear

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Well, yeah, I mean, why are we labeling them as mistakes? What is it about these specific things that is making them feel like mistakes?

SPEAKER_02 38:26

I guess, like, let's take the idea of like violation of boundaries. Now, in our previous episodes, we would have said, like, then that's not a boundary. If you're letting someone cross it, then that's not actually a boundary. Right. And I think that's why I'm putting those in kind of like the mistake category, maybe for lack of a different word to put on them. So if you like, if you want a boundary to be a boundary, but you're not holding the boundary and it's getting violated, then I'm just sort of like putting it in the five-gallon bucket of mistake, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

I'm wondering if that is helpful to bucket it as a mistake. Or would you bucket it as? To me, if something keeps happening over and over again, it means you don't want to happen. Right. It means that I haven't learned whatever it is I was supposed to learn yet. Like the messages are repeating themselves because I I'm not ready to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

The model hasn't been fully changed yet.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Right. Because I haven't given it thought or action or whatever needs to happen. And so in the case of boundaries, I would say, what is preventing you from holding the boundary? Fear. And fear of what?

SPEAKER_02 39:50

I guess whatever the result of holding that boundary would be, and I think there's a lot of discussion about when you hold a boundary, it might mean something happens, something breaks to some degree. Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

I had this conversation with a client last night. Yeah, exactly. It's the same thing. I said, you well, it was in conversation. I was maybe a little more forceful than I might normally be in a coaching conversation. But we've we've had this conversation over and over and over again. And I said, you are continuing to be the thing that makes the system work. And what does that cost? Because if you're saying I'm not available until 4 p.m. and somebody walks into your office and disrupts you at 3 p.m. and you let them, right? Then what you're really saying is I'm available whenever you need me to be available. And if that's the precedent you're setting, then you're going to continue having a hard time maintaining the boundary. Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

But and I'm guessing what's behind that person is also fear, fear of not being the person who is available all the time. And what does that mean about me and the the standard that I set for my persona?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Totally. And so I was kind of having this playback in my mind last night. And I was thinking, oh, I should have asked him what is he afraid of? Yeah. What is he afraid of in maintaining this boundary? Because he's also saying the cost is that I'm working, I'm only sleeping five hours a night, and I don't get to see my kid, and I'm stretched really thin. I don't get to prioritize the work that I'm working on. You know, so all of these things that's a high cost. On the one side, he's saying, I can't. And on the other side, he's saying, but I must. I can't not. Exactly. And so what if you're gonna talk about costs, like really fear of the unknown, maybe fear of rejection, fear of consequence, fear of change of paradigm? Sure. Fear, yeah, fear of yeah, change, then that fear is making the decision for you. Instead of maybe, I think if you're gonna compare the costs, just what is the cost of not holding the boundary and what is the cost of that possible consequence? Right. And compare both of those. Because like if you don't know what the cost of the consequence is going to be, yeah, then you're basically saying over and over again, this is a cost that I know, this is a cost that I can bear. Yes. And that is what is you know perpetuating this.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

And that could literally just be a matter of known versus unknown. Yeah. Like for sure. But I I think, I think you're right in that, like until you do that calculation, then you're never going to fully understand what the costs are. You, I mean, you almost have to treat it like a financial equation, like truly true cost, like money cost.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yeah, I think the cost calculation is there, but I think you're touching on something that is maybe really key in this whole mistakes thing, which is the fear. And what what is it that in all of these things? What is it that we are, what fear is driving our behavior? Yeah. And is there something else that could be driving it instead?

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Well, right. Like that's why I was so intrigued by this idea of like mistakes being the purpose, because then rather than being afraid of them, you embrace the idea that they're going to happen and you kind of welcome them to some degree. And

Kids School Trouble And Shame Spirals

SPEAKER_02 43:48

um, this week, this was another example of this coming up, but uh my middle daughter got in trouble at school, and she hates getting. In trouble. I mean, hates it. Um, we learned that a little bit too late in our parenting journey, I think, because we would, you know, maybe have a bigger reaction than we needed to, and she would just spiral out of control in terms of her reaction, just crying and hiding and all of the things. So we now know that she hates getting in trouble, and she doesn't get in trouble very often, to be fair. Um, but she got in trouble at school, and this is the second week of school. And so she got in trouble, she took her punishments, yada, yada, yada. The next day she saw another kid on the playground making the exact same mistake that had gotten her in trouble the previous day. And I asked her, How did that make you feel? And she said, nervous. And I was like, Why did it make you feel nervous? And she said, I never want to make that mistake again. And it was so real for her, this idea of like, I made it once, that person made it once, or maybe more than once, like this is something that could literally just keep happening. And that that fear of the mistake kind of coming back to her. And I saw it like she asked me to pick her up from school before recess to ensure that she didn't make this same mistake again. And I was like, that's like that's a really, really big way to avoid making the same mistake. Or you could just say, like, I'm just not gonna do that thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Right, exactly. Right. Which is what you know, where where are the levers of agency in this equation and and in all of them, really? I think beating ourselves up over mistakes gets us nowhere. Ever. There's I mean, it just doesn't. It already happens. Yeah, it already happened.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

You can't do anything about it, it is gone.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Right. So all you can do is repair or or learn and integrate that that knowledge about what you will and won't do moving forward because you know, this had a certain cost, and you are looking to have a different outcome. But I think mistakes are crucial for learning. I I think my middle is a very tenacious learner, and she's very unafraid to just get in, make mistakes, say the word wrong, yeah, move on. She skips over stuff, she, you know, runs a million miles a minute.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

And my oldest really is more mistake averse, and she really wants to have all, she's more deliberative than tenacious. And she really wants to have all the information. And I wonder if maybe there is some sort of fear of making a mistake that, you know, she's the oldest, she's the first kid, probably comes down to how we parented her.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

But yeah, exactly. I mean, you can look back, you can look back as her parent and be like, oh, like maybe could have done that differently. No, if I had all the information that I currently have, which of course we could, and uh, and of course, you know, knowing what I know now about my middle, like I would have parented her probably a little differently, but I couldn't have possibly known that, you know, could not have. So, you know, mistakes on mistakes on mistakes. I feel like it's a mistake, lasagna, all the time, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

But I I think like I kind of still want to push back on how and why are we labeling these things as mistakes? Because all they are are learning opportunities. Yes, they're just I mean, yes, little experiments over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

And I think some of it, I think we touched on some of it, and maybe this is all like to go into part two, but like some of it is fear that we explored, and some of it is shame. And what it says about us to make one mistake or another. Like, I'm sure not all mistakes, like I turned the wrong way is never gonna trigger shame in somebody. Well, I really hope not, but um but bigger things like what my middle child experienced, like that absolutely triggered shame in her. And I think the shame and the fear and the mistakes are very much intertwined with each other. And are people, you know, maybe there's a higher sort of I guess exposure or natural inclination towards fear and shame. Maybe not both of those things, but you know, if you have high fear and you have high shame, mistakes are gonna be incredibly detrimental.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely have high shame and I I'm not sure about fear. I I can say I am I have a certain risk aversion, but normally I just do it anyway. Like if I if something is making me scared, I'm like, yep, well, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Were you always like that though, or is this as this is just as an adult, as a business owner, as somebody who's lived and seen and come and gone?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

I think probably that. I would say I I was more like my middle in the tenacity department. And I mean, it is what it is. I ran I you know, I jumped in feet first on a lot of stuff and didn't wasn't sure how how deep the pool was gonna be. And I don't know. I I there are things that I wish I could do over, but for the most part, I think I would fall into that no regrets camp because I have been working so hard on the you made the best decision you could with the information you had at the time.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

And that doesn't that doesn't always feel good. It doesn't, it is not doesn't feel like resolution, but it is. And there's nothing to do. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

It definitely does not feel like resolution to me. I'm one of those people who definitely like that wouldn't give me much of any comfort.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Yeah, but like, but it is it it is what it is, it's not so. What do you want to do with that reformation? Right, you know, and that's I mean, that's the classic question, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:26

That's the coaching question. What do you want to do with it now?

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah. So kind of speaking of which, I I had clearly had lots of opinions on this matter. So I I don't think I was showing up solely as not well, I don't know that I'm supposed to show up solely as a coach, but no, definitely curious in this unpacking, like, yeah, what did you un I know this is a big topic. Did you unpack the part one that you wanted to unpack? I think so.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

I think I

Self Trust Over Perfection

SPEAKER_02 50:53

just wanted to get my thoughts. I wanted to get that marble at least rolling in the direction that I so that I could start formulating something concrete about my thoughts on this.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Um, I know what I want to be true, and I want mistakes to be the purpose that like I think that would be amazing. That would make me feel better. Yeah. You know, I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to do, just making a ton of mistakes all the time.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Right. I feel like some self-distancing techniques in here might really help. Like, little did she know that that was the the last time that she would make a peanut butter and marshmallow sandwich or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Peanut butter and marshmallow sounds amazing, but um I definitely do the like I think I do it less now, but I did it a lot when I was younger at the whole like trivant show plot twist, like narration of my own life. Yeah. And I used to do it a lot with this. Sounds really, really hyper-vigilant now that I say it, but like it started out as an ordinary day, and then catastrophe struck, you know. Like I used to do that all the time. I would just wake up and just say, it started out as an ordinary day, but and I don't I don't know why that brought me some level of comfort, but yeah, that like self-narration.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah, it yeah, it's a it's a great technique of like even just thinking about as you're describing these things that kind of happen over and over again, being able to say things like, I remember when I didn't feel like I could hold a boundary because I was afraid of this thing, you know, putting in past tense so that you can move forward or saying if I have perfect information about the consequences of these things, what is the outcome that I want? What does that destination look like? And then it's it started out as an ordinary day. And little did Lisa know that getting that coffee would change her life, you know, or something that really kind of or little did Lisa know that she was about to experience a massive plot twist that would take her one step closer to total world domination. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Yeah. I think there's good, there's definitely some strategies. I think being afraid of making mistakes is not a good place to be in. I think I'm gonna put that judgment on it. Maybe, maybe you're not prepared to put that level of judgment on it, but I think being afraid to make mistakes is, in my view, uh an inherently negative aspect of what's keeping personality. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You and like the general you and me specifically, probably.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah. So what could it look like to not be afraid of making mistakes? What would you do differently if you weren't afraid of mistakes?

SPEAKER_02 54:01

I think I think the opposite of fear of making mistakes is trusting your choices. And like I think there's an inherent piece of trust, self-trust in there that is like I will make the best decision that I can given the information. Like it's the it's the future tense version of what you just said.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

I think that helps me. The past tense version doesn't, but the future tense version does. I will make the best decision that I can, and I am a smart and capable person, and therefore it will probably be a pretty good guess most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

And it will be good enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Maybe it won't be optimal, but it will be good enough in your the journey to wherever the next destination is, especially if you're comparing yourself to good and not to perfect. Yeah. I think that's that's a trap. That's a classic trap, comparing yourself to perfection.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

It totally is.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Yeah. Well, thank you for unpacking for going with me on this very meandering topic. And I'm so big. I am here for it. I know. It sounds like we had a lot of experiences recently that kind of really fed into this, you know. And I think it's one of those things that when you start thinking about mistakes and stuff like that, like you see it everywhere. It's like the the red car effect, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah, it is. What is it called? Confirm no, uh recency bias or it's one of the biases.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

I thought it was confirmation bias, but I think it's an I think it's a different one.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yeah. No. That's gonna bug me.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

We should do an unpacking on bias, just like all the different biases.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

For future, for future discussion.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Yeah, it could be a series of unpacked snacks. Like today's unpacked snack is on recency bias and how it shows up and confirmation bias. I do think it might be confirmation bias. That's what came to mind first, but then I was like, well, because it's what's in your head, and so you're seeking out confirmation of that filter bias or something. Anyway, well, thanks for unpacking. Likewise, have a wonderful rest of your day. You

Closing Thoughts And Pseudoephedrine Aside

SPEAKER_00 56:12

too.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

Hey guys, Lisa, we've got stories to share. Lots of unpack there. Tune it every week, you don't wanna miss, dive deep into life with just a lit. Tune it every week, you don't wanna miss, dive deep into life with just a list.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

I get why people do math amphetamine. Because I took one pseudoped and I was like, ooh. Really? Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

I'm like, I feel like I can pound that stuff and it does like almost nothing. Although I don't usually get the good, like the behind-the-counter stuff.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

That's the stuff you have to get that. The phenolephrine.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Mm-mm. Okay. So that's why. That's yeah, okay. I'll uh try to remember that for next time.