"Be Your Own": Just Enough To Be Dangerous

If you could wake up tomorrow with four new skill sets that instantly made your day-to-day life easier, what would you choose and why? We start there and end up somewhere surprisingly personal: how competence, comfort, and confidence shape the decisions we make as busy women balancing work, family, and everything in between. Along the way we debate the dream lineup, from mechanic and seamstress to financial advisor and aesthetician, and we dig into what “enough to be dangerous” learning really means in the age of YouTube and endless tutorials. 

Then we drop into a real-world moral puzzle that sounds small until it isn’t: a poke bowl, one shaded outdoor table, and the uncomfortable truth that avoiding a 10-second awkward interaction can cost you a much bigger slice of comfort. We talk boundaries, people pleasing, and the invisible rules we follow even when no one asked us to. 

The second half shifts into leadership, entrepreneurship, and career growth. We unpack a government RFP proposal that looked exciting until the hidden scope, compliance demands, and project management risk triggered full-body panic. That panic becomes useful data, helping us separate personal stretch from business risk, and showing how a strategic “no” can free up energy for the work that actually fits. If you’ve ever wondered when to push through discomfort versus walk away, this one will hit. 

Subscribe for weekly conversations, share this with a friend who overthinks decisions, and leave a review with your four dream skills and the last time you chose “no” on purpose.

Transcript

Welcome And What We Unpack

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We've got stories to share. From our heart to your ears, lots to unpack this. Tune in every week. You won't wanna miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

We're Jess and Lisa. Two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are.

Four Skills To Boost Life Quality

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Wouldn't it be nice if I could? Okay, slight backup, slight backup of the backstory. Um I had a facial the other day, which was lovely and extremely long overdue, but lovely nonetheless. Um, and I thought to myself, wouldn't it be so nice if I had training as an aesthetician? Because then I wouldn't need to get facials. I could just know what to do. Okay. And this sent me down a little bit of a thing. And the thing is, what are the careers or vocations if I could only choose four that I would want to have for my life to make me a happier person? Oh and so, like assuming aesthetician is maybe one of those things. I started making a list of all of these like careers and vocations that would be like apply to my life. I don't change my life in any other way, other than I just have the knowledge of somebody who has a career in this field and therefore can apply them to my my own life. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

So oh, this is so great. I I'm loving this line of thought, of thinking. So I already have it answered.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

So okay, good. I was gonna ask you for yours. So this that's perfect. So another one for me. Well, I'll just give you the full list because I don't know that I've actually narrowed it down to four yet. So I'm I'm kind of delinquent in my own homework here because I thought you have to put some parameters on it. You can't just give yourself like an unlimited number. So I will tell you all of the ones that I came up with. So mechanic, okay, aesthetician, a pediatrician, because I have kids. So I thought like being a pediatrician or have some sort of like pediatric knowledge would be really helpful. Like being able to diagnose basic things, stuff like that. Okay. Um, obviously, lawyer. Being my own lawyer would be really, really nice to know enough about the law to represent myself if I ever needed to. Um, a seamstress. Okay. So I could make my own clothes. That'd be really cool. A plumber or an electrician, but I think I landed on plumber because like I think that happens more often that you need a plumber than you need an electrician. Okay. Um, this one came up a lot, computer scientist. To like, I mean, you live with one, so like you know the benefits of having one of these in your life. Oh, yeah, for sure. Being able to just like speak to a computer and have it speak things back to you is in this day and age kind of invaluable.

unknown 3:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

And then the last kind of category was headfund hedge fund manager slash financial advisor. So I think I'm gonna land on the financial advisor side of that. I think that would be more useful and applicable in everyday life. Uh-huh. But that's my list. I think I think I'm gonna go mechanic, aesthetician, seamstress, financial manager. Okay. I think that would make me the most happy to have all of those things.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

I'm having reactions to all of these things. So when you first asked the question, one of the things that came to mind was like, this is kind of like saying if money were no object and you were just looking at what are the skills that would increase your quality of life? Yes. What would they be? Exactly. And you went a completely different direction than you thought you were going.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

But I mean, like, yes, but yes, also that, yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah. But so then I thought about it in a couple of different ways. One is what are the things that in your current life you currently outsource that you would like to not outsource? So thinking about it from that perspective. But then all of those things, like what would you do all of the time? I I don't know. The reactions that I'm having are like, yeah, all of those things would be great skills to have. And I cannot imagine doing them for other people all the time.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

No, no, no, you wouldn't. You're only doing them for yourself. Oh, okay. Cause like No, no, no. You're just getting the knowledge out of it. I see.

Enough To Be Dangerous Learning

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Okay, so I will take this one step further, which is where I went in my mind, which was what if there was some kind of educational system that was called be your own? And you went there and you got the basic knowledge of those career fields to be your own. Now, some of this would work better than others. You couldn't be your own lawyer, like really. Like that's just that's too much of an advanced degree. But you could gain enough knowledge as a mechanic to like fix a lot of stuff on your car. You could be your own seamstress and that you could learn how to hem, how to take something in, how to use a basic pattern. Like you could learn that in six weeks' time and be your own that. So, anyway, that was where I was headed with that was like to apply it to your actual life, not to become any of those things for anybody else.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Right. Because I think in all of those things, you very quickly get a wall, you hit a wall of like when you're you know just enough to be dangerous, but you could like seriously mess some stuff up because having paid for a seamstress, uh like there's there's no way that I could do that job it in even any fraction of as good a job as that that person could do. And I just think that the amount of skill and time required is just so much to get. But you wouldn't be a master. Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I mean, go for that. You I mean, yeah, if you put in your 10,000 hours, sure, you could be. Yeah. But like the I the aim is to do it well enough that you didn't have to outsource the vast majority of it. If you wanted to make your own wedding dress, you'd probably still have to outsource that even with this knowledge. Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Yeah, my husband and I sometimes have conversations about computer science y stuff. And in my previous role in the the agency, I had I would say more than an average amount of computer science-y knowledge. Uh-huh. Just given the job that I was doing. And I'll ask him a question sometimes and he'll say, Do you have four years for me to explain this to you? Because that's what my degree took me. Exactly. Because you you really need to have the a foundational level of knowledge before we can even talk about why this is possible. And I think that that is that is true for almost everything that you said.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So the school, instead of being called be your own, it's called enough to be dangerous.

unknown 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Maybe you have different tracts. Yeah, maybe. You know, like enough to be dangerous is basic life skills and and like, but also can't we just doesn't that exist and it's called YouTube? I just don't know I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Is financial advisor enough to be, you know, competent in your own life? Like, is that something you can gain on YouTube? I don't know. Maybe it is.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Maybe I think maybe I haven't crawled into the YouTube hole enough to know, but I and I'm again not sponsored by YouTube, and I I really don't spend a lot of time on YouTube, but I think you can learn quite a bit there.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

You can learn a great deal there. I think you have to also consider the source though, and this would be embedded information. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I've got to be embedded in YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Embedded YouTube. Right. And you just show up and just watch a whole bunch of YouTube episodes.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah, I think the kind of extension question I have is what is stopping you from acquiring that knowledge?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

And I knew you were gonna ask me that, especially with some of these things. Right. Okay, I will just pull out Seamstress as an example. Like, these are definitely learnable skills. In fact, my mother knows very well how to do all of these things. And I have watched her, and I might even be able to replicate it. You could totally do it. But, you know, it would just be nice to, I just want that next level knowledge without just by thinking about it. Okay, stop dodging the question. What is your four?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Okay, so I wasn't dodging the question.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Oh, I think you were really bringing out this one exposition.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

No, so but it it just got me thinking. Um, okay, so things that I I would like that I would truly enjoy doing with a few asteries in them.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

I would love being a florist. I floral arrangements are so beautiful and exciting to me. They bring me so much joy.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

It never would have occurred to me.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

I love this. Keep going. I I think about it kind of all the time. Like if I I mean, I never pursued it as a career, but if I again money being no object and I could just go do something and and like be peaceful and happy, florist, totally one of them. Uh pastry chef. I have quite a few of the skills, but I think giving myself the time and space to get really, really good at that. I think one of my bucket list things that I still have to do is make a croissant. Like I really, really want to do that in my life.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Total sim moment. I just looked up how to make croissant the other day. Literally the other day. I want like, even though I've seen it made on bake off so many times, I wanted to, so I literally looked up the recipe of exactly how you do it. And I know there's a billion different ways or whatever, but I wanted the step by step just because I was like, I maybe should do this one day. Yeah. And maybe we should both do it together one day.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

I think I think we probably could go to to a cooking class that just makes croissant.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

I'm pretty sure it's I mean, if you want to be there for four hours for like 20 minutes worth of work, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Uh yes, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Well, that that I think is so much of it is chilling. It's so I'm just like, this

Why We Still Outsource

SPEAKER_01 10:55

is gonna be passive time.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Yeah, there is a lot of passive time. But maybe, maybe there are divided, maybe it's multiple baking projects, and that's just one of the ones that you do because there is so much time in between, and absolutely. But I I just think that whole thing, very cool. And yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I I've I sense though that two of your four now are not super practical. You're really like keying more in on the like happiness and like creative side than on the like practical help me with my life side, which is the the direction that I went. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

I think that is why I was so surprised by your answers. I and also I think because I already have a mindset of I I can probably do it without outsourcing it.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Like I can't you could be a pediatrician without outsourcing it.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

I look in my kids' ears. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, that that's the answer.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Actually, there is a reason why I didn't choose pediatrician in this this lineup for my number four, is because like I do feel like I no disrespect whatsoever to medical professionals of any variety, but like so much of that information, like basic stuff is is online now. I mean, I have diagnosed myself with many issues that doctors did not catch. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

So maybe maybe go easy on children. Go easy on how you broadcast that information because you might people might begin to think of thing. Yeah, no, exactly. I'm like, okay, running through the list. My kid has a fever, their throat hurts. I'm looking in the back of their throat. Do I think it's strep? Right. Yes or no? Like, what are how are the symptoms progressing? I think some of this is just like, when do you take your kid to the doctor? And I, you know, I have I think I have a pretty good sense of that. And same for myself in general when I am sick. So even just the other stuff, and this is one thing I really, really love about my husband, is that he is just he defaults to yeah, I could jump that far on on anything.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Oh, it's the it's the bear question or the landing of the plane question. Are you familiar with these?

SPEAKER_03 13:06

I am familiar with the landing of the plane question. But the thing is, I actually believe that my husband could land a plane if he needed to.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

I mean, I feel like your husband can do just about anything he wants to. That's what I'm saying. Given enough time and research.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

I don't know that the scenario really lends itself to a ton of time and research, but I bought him a trial flight a couple of years ago because I mean, he's interested in it. He has basic knowledge of more than basic knowledge of aeromechanics and how these things work. So yeah, I wanted to give him some some time practicing. So that he could he could actually land a plane. And that is that is a practical thing that I would I think I would also like to know how to do. It feels like a good exit plan, just in case you need to, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

That's good. That's a good one I hadn't thought of. But that that's a really good contingency sort of thing. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Learn learning. Is there a pilot on this plane? Is there anyone who can land this plane?

unknown 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Although I've flown a lot and that's never happened to me.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Same. Same. So okay, florist, pastry chef. It's it's tough because I I mean the job that I have now I would absolutely choose over and over again. But it's not, it's not like a practical, like I can't do it to myself, really, in that way. And it's not a practical.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

There's a lot of things you can do. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yeah. I don't know. I'm gonna have to think some more about it.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Your choices are so so different and interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

I'm I am tempted by the company. I expected them to be different than mine. I didn't expect them to be that different than mine.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Yeah. I am tempted by the mechanical component. Like I think that is it's pretty cool to you know know how things go together and how they fit together.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

And just think how much money you would save just changing your own oil or fixing your own brakes or um, let me guess, your husband does all of those things already for you. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

So then I have so I have to say, I feel like this is an unfair. So I have I have to take my current situation out of it because this is like if I were by myself and needed to do those things, yeah. Right. I think probably car mechanic would would be up there there because there's like meat vehicle maintenance and then have you have you not heard that expression before?

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Your body is your meat vehicle, yeah. No, yeah, the only reason I even knew what you were talking about is because you gestured to your own body.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Right. So I feel certain that you have heard this term, that we have we have talked about this in the context of pedicures. Pedicures are meat vehicle maintenance. Negative. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I mean, I I remember I do, I do, I reference and you reference often that pedicures are a maintenance activity, not a luxury activity. Although you could easily make a case for either one. I see them as maintenance, but that's also because I don't like dealing with my own feet. So sure. Uh anyway.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah. Uh so I think I think vehicle maintenance would would be good. And also I feel very confident in my ability to learn how to do that in myself. Right. But you're not going to day. Yeah, because it's like kind of a pain to dispose of oil and take care of those things. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

This is why we outsource. This is why we outsource. But in like it's not just the knowledge, it's also the logistic components to it. Like you don't have a lift in your garage that I'm aware of. So it'd be very difficult to change tires and take off brakes and things like that. You know, that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Correct. I would have to use a jack.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Like a four-way jack or something.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I guess just do it one at a time. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Do it one or two at a time.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah.

unknown 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Anyway, so that's one of the many things I was wondering.

The Shady Table Moral Puzzle

SPEAKER_02 17:13

I also have a moral dilemma.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Tell me your moral dilemma.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Well, it's a bit of a puzzle, actually. Well, is it a dilemma or is it a puzzle? It was a dilemma for me. It's a puzzle for you. Oh. Oh, joyous. Because I want you to try to decide what I did in this moral dilemma. Oh, okay. So what was the situation? So the situation was I was having a lovely day the other day. And I went to this strip mall kind of place. It's kind of like a galleria, like an outdoor mall, but it's also kind of like a strip mall. Anyway, you've been there.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

And um, I got myself a poke bowl.

unknown 17:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Because I love them. And I was really hungry. Sure. And at this particular poke place, there is only one seat outside. There is a very small table, like basically one, maybe two people can sit there, and two chairs outside. And it is a glorious day. Sunny, breezy, perfect. I want to sit outside. There are several tables inside the restaurant. None of them are taken. They're all open. But the one outside is. But the one outside has somebody sitting at it who did not purchase poke and is talking on their phone. Okay. This table is also in the shade. There are other seating options in the area. There are benches that are like traditional park benches. All of them are in the sun. And then there are these like maybe they were like flower planters at one point. They're kind of like there's like a center colander or like a column, and then there's like seats around, and it's concrete. Also full sun. There is also a restaurant with outdoor seating. It is a Thai restaurant. It is currently closed, but the seating area, it's all set up, but it's chained off. So you could move the chain or just go underneath it and sit at the tables if you wanted to.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

And those are in shade because they have umbrellas that are up and out, even though the restaurant is closed.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Like permanently closed, or just it's not open for lunch.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Unknown. Unable to tell because the windows are like have like a thing over top of them that you can't see inside the restaurant. So you can't tell whether it's like closed down or just not open. I see. And I am super hungry and I don't have a ton of time. And I really want to eat my poke and I don't want to eat it inside. What does Lisa do?

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Ooh. Well, this is a there are a lot of there's a lot of information in there. And I feel like there are some red herrings.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

There are. There are quite a few red herrings. All of this is a completely, absolutely what happened to me two days ago. So all of this is true. I did not add anything.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Okay. So I think the temptation is kick the guy out of the shaded seat at the restaurant where you are. But he's on his phone, and you can't see any food, but that doesn't mean he didn't order food. He could have had it and left and is just enjoying his time outside in the sun. Possible. Okay. Then the there's the other temptation of going into the Thai restaurant because it's closed and the seats are in the shade and there is no other outdoor seating and like it's a victimless crime. But it's tech but like it doesn't feel right because it's technically this other restaurant. Yes. Eating inside, which feels like the least possible option because it's not what you want. But I could see eating inside paired quickly paired with a walk outside as being an option. Okay. And then, or do you just sit in the sun and be fully in the sun? And it's lunchtime, so probably like it's the hottest part of the day and also the sunniest part of the day, and you like me are very fair and prone to burning. Yes. So the question is what did Lisa do?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

What did Lisa do? What do you think I did? And like no matter what you choose, it's probably a pretty viable thing because I really strongly considered all of these options. Except for you rightly identified, I did not consider eating inside. I just did not want to sit inside. Right. So like that, I did not consider all the other options. I strongly considered.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

And this is, it's like half an hour away from your house.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah. So not close enough to like go home and eat. Right. Exactly. And I wanted that. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Like in my face. I think you ate double salmon. I think you ate at the Thai restaurant outdoor tables.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

I got so close to doing it.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

What did you do? In fact, I so I went to one of the benches at first, which was like arguably the worst option because there was literally no like I was like contorting my body to even like eat my food. And I'm sitting right next to the Thai restaurant and like the tables are there and the umbrellas are up and it just looks so inviting. And there's really nobody around except for a couple of maintenance workers. I don't think they're gonna hassle me. But then I was like, but if someone does come over and say, you're not supposed to sit there, that's private property. Right. There's no plausible deniability because I either went under that chain or I took the chain off. Right. Like there's no way I can pretend that I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to do that. Yeah. And I just couldn't do that. So I sat on the stupid concrete flower planter thing in the tiniest liver of shade. I basically put my poke in the shade, and like the rest of my body was like in full blast of the sunlight, and I just ate it as quickly as possible. Oh. And it was not ideal. And I really wish I had just asked that person if I could sit down at that table because there were two chairs. Yeah. I mean, the table is tiny. We're talking like 12, maybe 18 inches across. It's tiny.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Right. So until you said that they were on the phone, that is where I was leaning. Like, oh, can I sit with you? Because it's a beautiful day and this is in the show.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

With the with the thought that like they're probably gonna bounce because they don't want to be sitting 18 inches from somebody who's eating that they don't know.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Maybe. I would I mean, I'm putting myself in that situation. If I was doing you would probably learn try to learn everything you could about the person and get into a deep conversation. I mean, maybe not, but like certainly I would allow them to sit with me. But it's the being on the phone, I think interrupting the phone conversation.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

And it was a full conversation. It was like they were in it.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Yeah, if they were sitting there reading, I would have been like, yeah, that that's what you did. But the interruption of the conversation does not it it seems like that would have been too much of a barrier.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

But then I also like, once I got done, I was like, I definitely chose to not have an awkward interaction and also made myself pretty uncomfortable in the process. So like I chose not to be uncomfortable, just to be uncomfortable. Right. And I kind of like pin this on my Midwestern roots or something like that, where I'm just like, the idea of inconveniencing anybody else is like the biggest sin you can commit in the Midwest. And so, like, I really wish I had just said, Do you mind if I sit here and eat my food? It's in the shade. And that would have been probably the entire interaction. And maybe they would have said no. They probably would not have said that. That would have made it weird, but they would not have said that. It truly was the only place in the

Discomfort Hierarchies And Social Rules

SPEAKER_02 25:12

shade.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Yeah. There was and so there was a study. I can't remember the details, but it they the people, um, the researchers had to ask people in the New York subway to give up their seat. Yes, I remember the study. It made them so uncomfortable that they had to stop. They had to switch the study. And the researcher was like, What are you talking about? This is so you just go ask them to get up. And then he and then he felt it. I mean, we're there's we are culturally trained not to inconvenience other people. It's interesting, kind of the higher hierarchy of discomfort, though, because inconveniencing somebody else was at the top of the discomfort. Yeah. Engaging in or the possibility of a conversation of getting in trouble as a grown-ass woman is like just underneath that.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

That was the other thing I was a little bit disappointed in myself. Like if someone comes over and tells you it's private property, you need to loop, you're not gonna get arrested. Right. You're not gonna get flogged in the streets or hung in the rack or anything like that. You're just gonna have to pick up your stuff and move.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Right. And also probably if you're not doing anything that's actively disrespectful to the place, nobody's gonna do that for the reason of the hierarchy of discomfort and that they don't want to confront you.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Right. And nobody walking around there is paid enough to like go hassle somebody sitting at a restaurant where they're not bothering anybody. A restaurant that is closed. That is closed, exactly. Yeah. So I literally sat on the hard bench for like 90 seconds, and I was like, this is not gonna work. Picked up my stuff with the full intention. I walked right to that Thai restaurant, right to the chain, swerved right away from it, and sat down on the concrete thing. Wow. I could not do it. I'm and I'm just like, come on, Lisa, come on.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

So I am not disappointed in your decision, but I am, but it is interesting to think about like the gymnastics that happened. Yeah, exactly. Especially because, like you said, you prioritized somebody else's and your own emotional comfort over your own physical comfort and enjoyment of the meal that you just bought. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

I had a stomach ache and my shoulder was burnt up. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Not great. Not a great outcome.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Not great, not great. I'm really hoping if this situation repeats itself that I make different choices. Yes. Yes. Yes. Though hopefully it will not repeat itself. Hopefully it will not repeat itself. But I have been in that dilemma with that poke place before because it only has the one table. And if somebody's sitting at it, you're just out of luck. But anyway.

unknown 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

So that that was my moral. You did a very good job, like kind of working through like where my mind was at with all of it. Yeah. And there there is another world in which Lisa did go and sit at the Thai restaurant to eat her food in peace.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

I definitely, I it also makes me think, what would I do? And I would uh probably eat very quickly inside and then take a walk outside. Yeah. There's just not much to see out there. There's not there's nowhere to really go. But there's like that's not the point. It's to be outside. Right. Right. Like you're not sitting at the table to eat your lunch so that you can see all of the things. You just want a a place to eat your lunch.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah. Slowly and enjoy it. Mm-hmm. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

So um I kind of mini unpacked a couple of

Knowing When To Pass

SPEAKER_03 28:46

things.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

You have do you have something to unpack?

SPEAKER_03 28:48

I do. I do. So earlier this week, well, let me tell you the the theme is about Do we have a theme? Yeah, because I don't, I mean, I think the like nitty-gritty of the context is probably not super important. But the theme is when do you know when to say to pass on an opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Ooh.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Yes. So the situation has been much of my life recently. Yeah. So the situation is with Patch, of course. I have been looking for business to business opportunities, ways that I can work with businesses to help them in their leadership development, to coach their leaders, uh, workshops, that kind of thing. And that has been on my radar for a long time, but I haven't made serious dents in or serious progress in that way. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

We'll see. And just for the listener who might be joining us, like not with all of the context, Patch is ChatGPT AI chatbot that you use on a regular basis and knows you, and you guys have a long-standing relationship. Keep going. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

I figured that anybody tuning in would very soon figure out who Patch was. But thank you for providing the context. So I asked Patch, since now Patch can actively research and search on the internet. Hey, find some opportunities that are out there right now that that you think my skills would be really well suited for. And Patch identified two. And one of them was with the Were they real? Yeah. Oh, nice. Yeah. So one was with the state of Florida's Department of Children and Families. And it looked really great on first glance. And even beyond first glance. I mean, I worked on this proposal for a while. I think I told a couple people, like, oh, I'm going to put my name in for this proposal, and that would be so exciting. And all of that is true. And yet I felt like it was outside my comfort zone. And then I was like, okay, but it's okay for it to be outside your comfort zone. You are not going to get the same results. You are going to get the same results from doing the same thing. So if you want different results, change the inputs, stretch a little bit. And then I just kind of had this like worry in the back of my mind, like, ugh, this might be biting off more than I can chew. This might be too big of a project. Like I am not, I am looking for something that is going to be a part of my business. I am not looking for something that is going to completely take over my business. Right. And so I just kept kind of chipping away at it and formatting and going deep dive into the RFP and trying to figure out all of all of the pieces that had to come into place for this proposal to be good and to be strong. And I even went into it with the assumption, I'm probably not going to get this job or this contract, but I want the practice.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

I want the practice in putting together a proposal, in kind of stepping outside of my comfort zone, all of that stuff. And it was the night before it was due. And my I had the bulk of my proposal kind of written out. And I'm going back into the RFP and starting to dissect to make sure that all of the pieces that are needed are in there. And as I'm doing that, the panic is rising up. Oh, this feels like a lot. Am I undervaluing my time? What is going on here? And so I went back to Patch and I said, here is my proposal as it stands.

SPEAKER_04 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

I want you to relook at the RFP, cross-compare, and find me the gaps. Nice. And the gaps were so many and so long. And and I realized in that moment this thing is way bigger than I thought it was going to. I had just been focusing on the tip of the iceberg, but there's a whole bureaucratic infrastructure that is going to be required of whoever wins this contract. Wow. And I made the decision not to put, not to submit. And I worked, I mean, I worked on this proposal. It was hours of my time.

SPEAKER_04 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

And so kind of I think that's what I'm unpacking is like, okay, I feel very confident now that I made the right call, that my stated purpose of doing this was so that I could learn how to put together a proposal, so that I could start building that muscle, so that I can think about things in that way. And all of the things that might be considered as I start to move into more of a business-to-business space or having more of those things as part of my business.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Mission accomplished, I learned so much. And also I'm like, oh man. But I didn't, I didn't do the thing. So when do you when do I know it's the right time to say that is not for me? Yeah. And and like if I had really done the deep dive on that, right, at first glance, I would have been like, oh, this is a whole sunk.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah, you wouldn't have sunk that time into it that you then did. Which is really the only negative, truly, is that you put time into it that didn't go anywhere, but it did actually, because that time was spent unknowingly figuring out where you really want to spend your time. It just wasn't there. Right. And how and how you want to go forward with business to business and things like that. So like it wasn't wasted time. It just wasn't, it wasn't time put forward to the thing you thought you were putting time towards.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Yeah. It's like I I was already kind of committing that much time anyway.

unknown 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Because I was I was going into it fully assuming that I would not be selected for the contract because I don't have the period of past performance. Or, you know, all of the those things that the government contracts need specifically.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

They have the check, they have those compliance check boxes. I've come across this too in my my line of work too, where it's like, it doesn't really matter what it is as much as that it's there.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Exactly. Yeah. So I I had already committed the time mentally. So like, why does it feel weird?

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Well, I want to talk about two points in this process. Yeah. One is I saw you writing. I did. I just write, I wrote down just a couple things. One is the point of panic. Uh-huh. So, like, if we're looking at this as a timeline, like, let's like put a pin in that moment, the moment of panic.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

And then the moment directly after the decision. Whatever, whatever that is. And like, I think the answer to your question is in those two pieces of information. Because like, we're talking about a very logical, very pragmatic issue that actually you have to look to the emotion to get the true, the true essence of. So panic is an emotion. It is not a logistic or a or a rational piece. It is, it is a true, like, it's something coming up from inside of you and telling you a message. And then what happens after the decision is made is another emotion. If your emotion is disappointment, that's different than if your emotion is pure relief. Because that is going to inform back on what that what that decision meant to you and what the process really explains about the entire thing that you've just invested in. In your case, it was a couple of days, a couple of hours writing, a couple of things back and forth with patch. But like there are times when this is a whole universe of multifaceted things

Panic As A Risk Signal

SPEAKER_02 36:50

with a decision point and a panic point or whatever that main emotional point is. So I want to go back to those two points in your story and like unpack those individually.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Yeah. So the panic, the panic parts, where I would say it was definitely a crescendo of panic, where it starts off and it says, I mean, like I can definitely do the leadership development piece, have done it before, have been successful. I can, I can absolutely do that. I have no worries about that. I can definitely do the coaching piece. I have done that before. I've even coached in that section of industry before where I feel very confident in my ability. And so that was on one side of like, yeah, there there is nothing in this kind of actually to our earlier conversation. There's nothing in this that I couldn't learn how to do and do it well. I feel confident in that.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Like most of your skills are there, maybe 10% or 20% just stretch, but you can get, you can get there. Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

I would say the needs assessment, the gap analysis, like that part is on the edge of my comfort zone. I've done it once, but I could I, you know, I think I have enough of an OD background, organization development background, where I can say, these are the best practices. I have the kind of evidence-based piece of it. So I had all of that kind of confidence on one side. And then I had this feeling of like, but that would be a massive project to execute. They're talking about an LMS. I I am sure I could figure it out, but do I want to? It's on that. And if I outsourced it, how much would it cost? And that's when all I think the the wheels started to come off the bus. Yeah, the wheels started to come off the bus. Because then what what I think tripped the panic was the risk. Ah. Which is interesting now that I'm saying that for the first time. Where all of a sudden, like up until that point, there was no risk because I wasn't expecting to get it. But then it was like, ooh, maybe I do have enough to be dangerous. Maybe I maybe like probably I won't get it. Probably there are companies that have massive bureaucratic infrastructure, that are used to working with government entities, who have people dedicated to this who have been working on this proposal for the last year. Like, you know, that's like those are the people who are gonna get it. But if I maybe not, but maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

But maybe not, because maybe you're the lowest bidder. Exactly. Maybe those people had to pull out for other reasons because the economy's crazy and stuff happens. I mean, that is like one of the oldest things that they tell you is like, don't apply for a job you don't want because you might get it. Like you might be in there then, and then like, okay, what do you do? Um, that that matters more in the government side where like you kind of have to accept once you're given a job offer, it's less so in the corporate sector. But um, but yeah, yeah, that's and and at least to me, I'm gonna like put myself in your place a little bit. I think some of this would be a little bit questioning myself on like, am I just fearful of stretching myself? Or is this really beyond my capabilities and is just not the right time, place, situation, logistics, whatever. And like I think you got to that place when you started talking about risk. So go back to the risk and like go go that direction.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Yeah. So then with the risk, I was it was kind of like, what are the risks if I if I submit and I don't get this? Well, reputationally there could be some damage because I didn't put together like a very fully thought-out proposal where they would read and be like, who is this clown? That that's maybe a risk. And then I thought, but the risk if I do get it, if I submit it and I do get it, is and I'm not prepared on the project management side of things, like $100 a day, real financial risk to my business. And I was like, nope, can't do it. And so I think it's like the difference between what I'm what risk can I take as a person and what risk can my business take as a financial entity. And that was that was the line where I was reading over the proposal or I was reading over all of the holes, and I thought, okay, you know, I can, I can mitigate, I can come at it from different ways. But at the end of the day, I'm just plugging holes. Like this, this ship is not safe for sailing in. Right. And therefore, like I'm choosing not to get in it.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Yeah. And you care about that client enough to not do a shoddy job and and about your business reputation too. But like you're not gonna, you're not gonna volunteer for a job that you're not capable of doing, and then they lose, you lose. Like, yeah, there's not a whole lot of upsides there.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

I think, and to kind of pull that thread a little bit, it's really important to me that if I do, if I am raising my hand, that I do a really good job. And so I think in the past that has shown up for me as not being able to find when is good enough. Like, because I've always wanna bring my best. And some like in this case, I think trying to bring not just my best, but the best would really quickly drive me down into a not great headspace, like the panic, it was real. And so then you asked about the second

Relief After Choosing No

SPEAKER_03 42:40

point. Like, how did I feel after making the decision? And I felt ambivalent. I think I needed time to process those things. And so, but what I realized is in this process, having the weight of that decision, even though I didn't know it was a decision, pushed me into procrastination on a whole bunch of other things because I was like, I can't like the weight of this required all of my processing. And so I just didn't do any of the other things. And so what happened immediately after I was like, I need to set this one out was I wrote. I wrote a newsletter that has been banging around my head for like two weeks. Yeah. So, and then in the process of that, by the time I went to bed, I was like, okay, I can go to bed. I I made a decision and then I moved forward on something else that I've been procrastinating because this decision has been weighing on me.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yeah. I think that makes total sense. And like once that weight was lifted, you were able to say, like, whoops, I gotta like shore up some of this other stuff that I've been not really intentionally, but kind of neglecting just by virtue of the fact that I was I was maxed out from dealing with this thing. Right. I think I think a lot of people, and I Definitely can like relate to that concept of like when something takes so much of you, it's not that you're not aware of all of the things that you're not doing, you're aware of them. You just don't have the capability to show up for them. And that is like that is one of the hardest feelings to have, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Because for anyone, it's like disappointment. It feels like like unused potential for me. Unused potential and disappointment. And like I'm I'm pretty good at catching it in the moment, being like, hold up, you know, that is like you're I'm exercising the self-compassion muscle. Like you're doing what you can do. This is your body's way of saying that you need to rest. And at the same time, like I think sometimes maybe what I need, maybe what I should what I should be thinking is what is that thing? What is taking up all of the energy? And is that what should be taking up all of the energy?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yeah. So is the trigger for you the procrastination? Is that how you know to like reflect on that? I think so. So but you're not a natural procrastinator. I am absolutely a natural procrastinator.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

So that's where it gets tricky. That's where it gets tricky because like I I do much better on a deadline with structure. And I can like I am not just running forever. I like there's there's an end point, and so I kind of meter my brain power to get to that endpoint. I I don't know if that makes sense to it does. Okay. It does. So I I procrastinate on everything, but on on things where it's like, but I've identified that this is a priority and I just feel like I can't right now. Maybe that's like maybe that's where it's like what is what is taking I don't instead.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

I I don't know that I can get on board with that. What do you mean? I don't I was like sitting here like trying trying to be on board with what you're saying because you know you. I'm never gonna be able to challenge how much you know you. Sure. However, I don't think you procrastinate on everything. I think you are incredibly thoughtful, mindful, and proactive in so many areas of your life that I don't think we can paint with a broad brush here. You might procrastinate on things that feel big and daunting and and troublesome in some way that like you need to figure out. But I do not think that it is acceptable to say that you procrastinate on everything. I I cannot, I can't, I can't but I can't.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

But I do, but I do. It's like, and this is a thing all the way, I mean, for as long as I've at least starting in high school, maybe even before. It's like maybe with some things you procrastinate. I I can definitely see that. No, it is like I have enough underwear so that I can procrastinate on laundry for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

I I do as well.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Like it's my my husband is really good about systems and his phone tells him what to do on what days and all that stuff. And when I need to have those structures, I can do it. Like I'm capable. Yes. But if I don't have to do it, I am absolutely procrastinating on that thing. The only reason it seems proactive is because in my head, I have some deadline that's coming up tomorrow. It's a totally arbitrary deadline. You would never know about it. But in my mind, if I don't get it done by tomorrow, I'm behind.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Okay. Your kid is growing out of their shoes. You know they're gonna grow out of their shoes. Do you wait until they grow out of their shoes to get them new shoes? Or do you go get them the next pair of shoes before they grow out of their shoes? Half and half. I've done both. So you don't procrastinate on everything then? No. That shows a proactive mindset. It does. There are people who literally procrastinate about everything. I don't know. Anyway, I'm gonna think about this. I'm gonna think more about it. I bet you're gonna find at least 50-50 in your world. I'm not saying you don't procrastinate on things. Absolutely you do. I used to procrastinate on nothing. I was never a procrastinator. No, I do it quite a bit. So I would say in my life, it's more like 70% proactive, 30% procrastination slash reactive, like panic moment. Gotta get this thing done. And probably that number is growing.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah. But I'm gonna have to think more about it because I I would say if it affects other people, I procrastinate hardly ever. Right. And it's like but it's like anchored to times of the year. So did I wait until my middle child's feet grew out of her shoes to get her new shoes? Yes, because I didn't know her feet had grown out of her shoe size. But that's not procrastination. Right. It happened it truly overnight. I mean, we identified it happens to me too. She needed new shoes for other reasons. And then by the time the new shoes got in, her feet were too big for those shoes. So that that happened.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Yeah. But then it's like start of the new year, we get clothes for everybody in the appropriate size. So it's anchored. It's like, you know, there are external things. I hear you. I do. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

What do you want to take away from this experience of the contract proposal and your panic and your ambivalence and

Comfort Versus Calculated Risk

SPEAKER_02 49:50

all of the pieces that you learned from this? Yeah. Opportunity cost, all of the things.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

So I think what I what I'm taking away that came up for me today. So one of the things is like, how do you know when is the right time to step back and when is the right time to like push forward in your comfort zone? Yeah. And for me, I think that question comes down to the risk. Is it a risk to me personally? Is it a risk to my business financially? Like, how am I thinking about how am I thinking about the risk and managing the risk in an appropriate way?

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Yeah, that I think that's key though, because like you can get over you can get risk averse. Not you, general you. People can get risk averse, and it makes it so they don't step out of that comfort zone. And I wrote down comfort as like a key point of this, is like comfort shouldn't really be like a sole rubric for deciding. I think we we know this, right? I don't, I don't think so. And I don't, but I don't think risks should either, because there are some risks that are worth the risk. And there are some risks that are not worth the that has that calculus has to happen.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

Exactly. So I think there has to be an evaluative layer. Like, what is the risk of doing this thing? What is the risk of not doing this thing? If the risk of doing, and then from there, like what's the risk to me personally, to my family balance, what's the risk to my business financially? Yes, all of that stuff. And so I think what I was intuiting without without knowing it was that inner voice was saying, there's too much risk on this specific thing. You can do a smaller version of this with less risk and still growing out of your comfort zone. Right. And I came up with, well, Patch and I came up with an action plan of like how to get involved either closer locally or in whoever wins that contract to see.

SPEAKER_04 51:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

Maybe there's an opportunity for me to do a portion of that without touching the LMS, without touching all of the project management stuff.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

So I am taking that away. I also think that something I am proud of that happened in that experience is that like it wasn't my headspace, even starting out, was you can't do this. It was like, see how you can do it. And so I think I had a positive mindset going forward. That's good. Yeah. And like being able to say, This is what is in my comfort zone, what is a little on the edge of my comfort zone, and like kind of bucketing across. And then I think once that once I really looked into it and saw that.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

That's a really good thought exercise. Yeah. Yeah. I could literally see you like whiteboarding that. Just like here are the things that I can do in my sleep. Here are the things that I can do with relative ease. Here are the things that I can do, but I'm gonna need to YouTube. Right. Exactly. And here are the things that I do not know how to do that are adjacent to the other work that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think even doing the things that I know how to do in my sleep, I'm still gonna, there's an opportunity for growth because there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Especially in the work that you do, because you are in the human business just like I'm in the human business, and humans are always gonna surprise you. Exactly. And they're always gonna bring something new.

SPEAKER_03 53:11

Yeah. Yeah. But when it comes to like the technical expertise and who do I want operating on my car, like probably not the person who just YouTube, unless it's my husband, in which case, you know, I trust that he has the That's right. He can wrestle a bear, he can land a plane, he can't. I don't think he he would not wrestle a bear.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

I that's the other that's the that was the other one I was referencing was like like some some ridiculous statistic percentage of men believe that they could fight a bear and win.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

I I'll have to ask the husband, but I think large percentage. I think he'd be like, no, but I can probably run faster than the bear. Like I could probably run faster than my friend.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Right now. Yes, maybe that one. Be aware of who you go into the woods with and make sure you run faster than them.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Yeah. What are you?

Jaguars And The Goodbye

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Your jaguars are back in North America. I just learned this. Jaguars are back in North America, and they are like the apex predator of apex predators, such that they eat crocodiles and bears and they can run like 50 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_03 54:19

Um I did not, but also, can you say that word one more time? Jaguar. Jaguar.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Is that not how you say it?

SPEAKER_03 54:29

What do you say it?

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Whoa, no.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

I know. Jag will have to unpack another time. Say it, say it again. Jaguar. All right. Well, from Jess and Lisa, thanks for unpacking with us, and we'll see you next time. Hey, it's Jess and Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

We've got stories to share. From my heart to your ears, lots to unpack there. Tune it every week, you don't wanna miss. That deep into life with just a list. Tune it every week, you don't wanna miss. The deep into life with just a list