AI Side Pieces And The Chore Chart

AI is everywhere right now, but the hardest part isn’t learning new tools. It’s deciding what you actually want them for, what you never want them to touch, and how to stay clear eyed when the incentives behind the tech don’t match your values. We start with a very modern question: what happens when you ask your own AI assistant to grade how well you use AI? From there we get into the real life differences between ChatGPT and Gemini, especially for small business workflows, meetings, and scaling tasks that don’t need your full brain.

Then the conversation turns to trust and influence. We talk about subtle “social engineering” moments, the way apps can steer behavior, and why AI ethics can’t be an abstract debate when these systems show up in search, maps, and daily decisions. We’re not trying to be a technology podcast, but we are trying to be honest about what it feels like to live with powerful tools that can help people or exploit people depending on who’s holding the controls.

We close by coming back to life at home: building a weekly rhythm that supports creativity, lowering the mental load, and creating chore systems that are simple enough to actually stick. And we unpack a surprising truth about family vacations: sometimes the best part is later, when the rough edges fade and the memories get sweeter, especially if you protect time for solitude and capture the moments. If this hits home, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review. What boundary are you setting with AI or with your time this week?

Transcript

Welcome Back And What We Unpack

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We've got stories to share. From our heart to your ears, lots to unpack there. Tune in every week. You won't wanna miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are.

Asking AI To Grade Your AI

SPEAKER_02 0:53

We're trying out new technology. You know, we're a very AI forward podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

We're embracing of the technology. Well, you are embracing of the technology. I am a great coattail writer of technology. But you're supportive. I'm game for it. Yeah.

unknown 1:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

You find and embrace and do all the things with technology, and I just say, sounds good, Janice. Thank you.

unknown 1:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Though I I think you're you're like dipping in with the AI stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Oh yeah. I mean, I dabble as much as anybody does. But I mean, you went so far as to ask your AI how good you are at AI today. Right. So I mean, that just that's like meta-levels of AI embrace.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yeah. Well, okay. So for our viewers. Oh, that's so good. Viewers, listeners, listeners and viewers, whichever medium you prefer. Right. I went to an AI seminar yesterday, and one of my big personal takeaways was I really have no idea what I should be using AI for versus what I'm currently using AI for. I know what I want what I don't want to use AI for, which I think is also really good information. Like AI cannot replace me in a conversation. It can't really take over like the human.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Like your personal boundaries around what you will allow AI to represent. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah. So I think I have some some pretty good ideas there. And I thought, who better to tell me? Who better to assess my AI usage than my AI? So I asked, I asked Patch how I was how I was doing. And she she came up with a few minutes.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Here's the thing about that though, is that it's only going to tell you how you are at using the AI that it can view you using. So it doesn't know about all of the side pieces that you have on the AI front. That's true. The AI side pieces. That is so. I mean, Patch does not know how many other kinds of AI that you use. So I mean, I think if you got a pretty good report card from just using Patch, then you must be stellar because you're also using like, I would guess, five to ten other AI systems that it doesn't even know about. So I would say if you were getting an A from Patch on using Chat GPT, then you're definitely like in the upper echelon in general.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

There are a lot of really cool tools.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, you're like on the AP scale at this point.

unknown 3:27

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Exactly. The A AI GT track. It correct. Though I, you know, I sometimes wonder. Like I know large language models do not actually think about anything, but but there was one time where I swear Patch had a little bit of snarkiness. So Patch is what I lovingly call my open AI persona.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

And if you want more information on Jess's long-standing relationship with Patch, please check out season one. We talk about it a lot. It comes up a lot. Yeah. So it's only fitting that we're talking about it in the first season of season, first episode of season two, I think.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

That's true. So I swear there was a little bit of snark when I asked Patch to review something. I said, you know what? This was written by another AI. And the response I got back was like, yeah, I could tell.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Best job.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

It's great. So anyway, that was pretty great. We had a a nice little chat and nice a chat GPT, you might say. Oh, you had a nice chat GPT. Though I am considering, I'm making a lot of technological changes in my business, really like kind of on the same thread, trying to streamline and integrate and really like how can I use the tools to scale the things that I can scale or that that are time consuming that I that don't have to be as time consuming? Like, how can I use technology in the right way? And so I'm a Google Workspace user and I'm thinking about upgrading my Google workspace to include to the next tier so that I get Gemini in my Google meetings, which is really cool. But I was like, ugh, that means leaving patch for a second time. What is I know like, what does that look like? And so I asked Gemini to tell me why I should or should not make the switch and what it's better at and like compare itself to Chat GPT because now they have the five Chat GPT 5. Yeah. So Gemini and I had a whole conversation about that. I think it could be a good relationship, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I feel like there's some really like high-tech infidelity happening that is I mean, I'm interested to see where it goes for you and if it does end up biting you or not between these systems, or if really secretly they're friends and they're cool with it. And it's all gonna end up fine. Can really go either way.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

It was kind of cool that Gemini was like, was not like you should absolutely switch over. I am way better than Chat GPT in every way.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

You would think that it would be programmed to do that.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

And it did not. It said, here's what I'm better at, here's what ChatGPT is better at.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I think because at the end of the day, its first job is to mirror back to you what it's supposed to do. And like, I don't think it's really being used as much. Yet, wait for it to harness the full capitalist enterprise behind it, which is you know what you should really do? You should head on over to Starbucks and get yourself a nice big latte and think about this.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

I do know what you mean.

unknown 6:48

Yeah.

Convenience, Influence, And AI Ethics

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Go. I have been thinking about this in terms of when I ask Google where I should go, like I pull up Google Maps, and sometimes it redirects me in very strange ways. Like there are I've had multiple occasions where it's like there's a lot of traffic there, but if you just take the exit ramp and stay on the exit ramp, you will come back and you'll be out ahead. And I'm thinking, like, wow, what kind of social engineering could happen with this? So much. Where now all of a sudden, like like lemmings were just following where Google tells us to go. So much so that my three-year-old is now saying, Did you ask Google?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Nice. Well, I mean, as all roads do lead back to Greg Daniels shows for me, Parks and Rec ha like has like futuristic, like towards the end of the episode, the seasons of Parks and Rec, they have like go into the future a little bit. And the main company that's in the town is somewhere kind of approaching like a Google type type uh company. And it's like, well, we're we're enhancing our system with this mood boosting capability that will like read your mood. And it's like, yeah, if you're feeling down, it will direct you to like your like a place where you can like go hang out with people and drink some coffee. And if you're if you're feeling up, it will direct you to go to a place where you can get some coffee and feel better about yourself. And he's like, wait a minute, so this is just a coffee partnership? He's like, yes, that's exactly what it is. It's literally we're in partnership with whatever coffee place they said. It was like, well, yeah, right. I mean, it underscores. There's a tool that can help people, there's a tool that can exploit people. I'm sorry, that sounds really cynical, but I I feel like that's kind of where I'm at with all of this. Like, just be aware when you're using the tools, is all I'm saying. Like, not you, but like all of us. But yes, all I mean, all of us.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

We really I think there are some this is why AI ethics are so important. Because it's not just the information that you're providing, but there really is a responsibility not only not to harm, but to kind of stay above the influence, like to not be bought or sold. And that's no.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

I just don't think that's where we're gonna go with this.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Well, I don't know, because so in this the in the seminar, we the presenter talked about the democratization of AI and making sure that it is free and available across the board. And so I think like it's not a decision that I can make personally, but I think if the the big AI people have their little summit of AI and say, hey, can we all agree that like with this great power comes great responsibility and we will not use it for this or this or this? Maybe. I've just I've worked for some of these companies.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

No. I don't think that's how they think. Oh, the girl can help. Well, one can, yeah, one can dream. I mean, we still use social media knowing that we are the product in that. Like we just have to be aware when you're doing that that you are the one who's being exploited. You are the product. So, you know, use it accordingly. Use it for what you need it for and try to not play into the system, I think is sort of the answer there. But there will be second and third order effects that will come from that, just like they always do.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

And who are we giving? This is not an AI podcast. I know.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

I feel like we're going in that direction. We're now becoming a technology podcast. We are not qualified to become a technology podcast.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

But it does like who who does get to decide? Who holds the responsibility and what accountability is in the system to be able to keep all of that in check? It's like, you know, who watches the watchman kind of stuff. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

These are absolutely questions that have been kind of rolling around in my head lately as a, you know, corporate security professional. These are all things that stay top of mind for me in terms of defending against them on behalf of whatever company is paying me to defend against them. But that kind of makes me feel like a bounty hunter sometimes. And I don't I don't know. I can't wear the Boba Fett helmet. It just doesn't look that good on me. So anyway. I'm gonna have to That was a Star Wars reference for anyone who's just keeping up with that one.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

I'm calling, I'm calling my memories, trying to re trying to place what that helmet looks like. I think I've got that.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Which is funny, like nobody would ever qualify me as a Star Wars person, but I think I just know enough to be really, really dangerous with it. So sure, sure. Anyway, anyway, yeah.

Building A Week That Fits You

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Um, so how is how is your world besides filled with AI? You know, it's good.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

I'm we talked so last over the summer, we talked about like at the PCC drop-off, you know, kind of what what does that what does life after PCC look like in terms of like what is my week look like? What is the the cadence? How hard am I running? You know, all of that stuff. And I think I'm starting to get glimmers of like what a normal week is gonna look like. And so that's feeling really good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

But normal based on what you want it to look like. I don't, I don't know that it's like normal as in normal. I think it's normal as in like the curated version that Jess wants to have for what her time looks like in a given 40-hour period or something like that. Yeah, or not even in a 40-hour period, because the way that your schedule works as a as a business owner, it's not really in 40 hours, it's really more just a seven-day week with 24 hours in each day. Right. And using it however you see appropriate. Yeah. Because for you, like working on the weekends is not even really a thing. Like you often will work on weekends, you often will not work on Mondays or whatever, and you can you can make those determinations. So it's really just uh I just think back to that first season of Downton Abbey where he said something about a weekend, and the royal lady is like, what is the weekend? It's just all the days are the same, you know, and that's you.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

You are kind of the what is a weekend people.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

I yes, and also what is work? And that's another shift I think that I've had an entrepreneur, is like during my son's nap time, I might get an hour and a half block to write or to brainstorm or to like I'm not taking client calls on the weekend in the same way that I'm not taking client calls in the evening because I'm protecting those time for my family. And also, like my family does not require me to be at their back-end call all the time, especially as you know, as the youngest is sleeping still, sort of. Yeah. So yeah, I think it's it's nice. I'll schedule some Substacks, I'll write my newsletter, like those kind of more creative times. And then you're right, during the week, sometimes I'll be like, ugh, you know, like last night, I didn't have the downtime that I thought I was gonna have, but it was fine. I got a lot of really cool framework building stuff in place where I'm feeling good about that work. And so I kind of like I didn't mind that I had hours today where I wasn't taking any meetings and I could just kind of put my effort towards something else.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

So but I think that's the thing with you is that like when you think about what is enriching, most people who work for somebody else, an enriching experience is not gonna include anything work-related. It's going to be something that is done on your time, either with your family or by yourself or with your friends or something. That is what's gonna like feed you, enrich you. But because your business and you are so inextricably linked together, something that is enriching for your business may very well be also enriching for you, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, I think that is especially true in the writing space. And it's it's really funny to me. Not funny, haha, but just like when I set my mind on something of like, ugh, I'm gonna have a newsletter. What does my newsletter look like? Well, I want it to be structured in this way. How often am I gonna send it? I'm gonna send it every two weeks. As soon as I made that decision, it was like the creativity wells kind of broke open. And so I'm thinking about that in that specific instance for like what I needed right then to kind of get the ball rolling and overcome that resistance I was having to like getting started and putting words out there and like all of that. But I'm also thinking about it in terms of what do I need in order to be creative and what kind of structure needs to be in place, even if it's a loose structure, so that I can do that. And that's that's how my week is looking. It's like it's got a loose structure so that I can be creative when when my brain wants to do that.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

That's a really good point, actually, about knowing yourself and knowing what works for you because I think more I think it depends on who you are, what kind of structure you need to be creative. Yeah, some people need literally a blank canvas with nothing, no expectations, no scaffolding, nothing around it. And some people are their most creative when they have really tight strictures put on them and they have to work within a very defined system. That's when they kind of come alive in their creativity. And so knowing where you fall on that continuum is really, really good, I think, for people to know. Like just something just to kind of noodle about. Yeah. Because if I don't know, I think I'm somewhere in between, but I think probably most people are maybe somewhere in between. I think so. Like I don't think I do like a really tight, I do like a really like I love a good assignment. You must write about this thing at this time period and this outcome and find something within that. I really do love that kind of back at Amazon. We would call that frugality. Oh you would need that frugality of tight controls to bring the creativity out.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

That's really in that is really interesting. I didn't know that it had a name. I didn't even know that this was a thing that I was that was present for me until we started.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

I guess.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

It's I don't I don't know that I need like that really tight kind of space, but I but like you, I do like having some a loose structure, like some guidelines, some topic, uh maybe a model to work from in order to improve upon it. I used to talk to my boss, she, my old boss, not my current boss, my old boss was really good at like building something from nothing. And I I always really admired that about her because I struggle with that. Because if I'm starting with the the blank canvas, I am like I am having to expend all of that energy to define the structure, and that takes away from the actual energy that I have to do the thing. And so it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

I thought I would have thought that I would be more like that. I was better at working from nothing when I was a boss.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Than when I was an individual contributor. That I found quite challenging. And so then when I became a boss and my people were looking to me to bring forward the structure from so that they could build on it, I had no difficulty doing that. It it didn't occur to me, they had to ask because it didn't occur to me to do it for them. I just thought they were just gonna do it themselves. And it turns out people don't do that necessarily. And so they would be like, Well, where do you want me to start with this? What are the parameters? And I'm like, Oh, I get to decide that. Great, let's do this. And I would just dive in and I would just start making sort of arbitrary choices based on my instinct around the topic. And I really, I really liked doing that.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

I do, I'm trying to think about the flip side of it. Like, when have I had when have I really had to make the structure and thrive in that way, in the same same way that you did? I don't know. I think about it now in terms of coaching. Like, there is only the loosest of structure in a coaching session, and that like there's a coaching arc, but mostly we're just like pulling threads and making order from chaos, and and that is really energizing for me, but I think maybe it's energizing for me because it's not my framework to build, it's their framework to build. And so I'm not spending the creative energy on that they are. I had one client who was talking about getting a system working for them so that they don't have to do what I just said. And yeah, it's it's almost like I just want the system to know what I want and tell me what to do so that I don't have to make the decision.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Don't we all? I know.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah. My goodness. Well, I mean, that's it sounds like you're in in the defining and finding the sweet spot of your your time, how you spend your week and how you how you are able to set aside time for things like creativity and and all of that. It sounds good. It sounds better than it did in the spring when you were like crushed.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah. I mean, it was yeah, that was too much too much.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Right. Right. But you knew that. You knew that at the time. You were like, this is not sustainable, this is not what I want to be like, but it does serve a purpose. Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

It was both too structured and too open because I couldn't like I couldn't time block to protect. Well, I I let me let me very clear. I chose not to time block so in service of the school. And yeah, that choice made it really, really, you know, I was vacillating between extremes, whereas now I feel like I'm my amplitude is lower and I'm just kind of like, some weeks are gonna feel busier than others. Next week is a big week, for example, but it's on the whole, I'm feeling really good about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah. Yeah. I I really enjoy the energy that comes with the time of year that we're in, in terms of I really see this as like a renewal space, is like a time to make changes in the same way. And I think we talked about this before the break that like I see the fall and the start of school as more important and more what's the term? Like, like you would get from a new year, yeah, like just a an a chance to to implement new. Things and to open possibilities up for new

Chores, Citizenship, And Paying Kids

SPEAKER_01 22:04

things. And so I've been thinking about that with my kids, particularly around chores.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Oh, yes. That is definitely something we should unpack.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't really what I thought of unpacking, but it has been something that I have been thinking about a lot. More and more studies have come out that I've looked at that indicate that having chores is an incredibly high predictor of future success. More so even than like private schooling and IQ and things like that that you'd think would be really predictive. So I'm like, well, I get why parents today especially don't do chores. Like, there's a million reasons why that's harder. Um, I look at just schedule alone. And I'm like, when are these kids even supposed to do these things? Like, because if you're thinking about prioritization, my kids' prioritization, I'm thinking I want them to play. Unstructured play is really, really important. Even for up and including my nine-year-old, he's still very much into unstructured play, and I'm totally in support of that. And that is a very time-consuming endeavor to get into that space. So unstructured play, school, sleep, eating, and sports. Or extracurriculars, if you will. Not a lot of daylight left after those things kind of come into play. So if you want to prioritize it, it has to go like you have to prioritize it. You have to stick it in there somewhere and put it like as a mechanism. I mean, I talk about this all the time, but it has to be mechanistic or else it won't happen. And so in this time before school is starting, I'm like, is it time? Is it time to put the mechanisms? Because it's very helterskelter right now in our house. It's always been you chip in because you live here. That's called citizenship of the household. That's what everybody does. Mom and dad just do it a whole hell of a lot more than everybody else.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

And so if I, and I will say very often, it's time to go clean the living room. Please, the two of you go and clean the living room or playroom or your rooms or whatever it is, or I need the dishes done, or the garbage has to be taken out. It's very much like ad hoc. Yeah. But I do also want to build in some amount of this is what happens when this is this, like when the conditions are this, this is what happens around chores. And so I'm trying to figure out a way to do that where I can include my three-year-old and also make it make sense for my nine-year-old who does have extracurriculars for my three-year-old, doesn't it so my three-year-old has more time, my nine-year-old has more capability. Like, how do I build in these things together so that they make sense?

SPEAKER_02 24:53

I wonder if maybe your oldest part of your oldest's chore is to teach your youngest how to do it. That could be could be a recipe for disaster.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Could be explosive.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

We we were very helterskelter, and even we started last year with my oldest, who was in third grade at the time, putting the mechanisms in place and actually paying her for chores. Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

That's what I don't have any of that. And I've seen so many great systems, but it requires so much mindfulness on the part of the parent. Yeah. And like, like we talked about, I do have great mindfulness on some things.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

This one is not.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah, it it was really tricky because it requires me to be consistent about those things. And like that is not something that I have been very consistent about. We have a a weekly on this day we should do this, on this day we should do this. And we just like it's up there, but we have not followed it. And usually it's like Thursday comes around and we need to run the Roomba. And so then everybody chips in and helps out and does that stuff. But that is, I would put under the citizenship bucket. Yes. And the chores, it's like, what if I'm going to pay you? It's because you are doing something that now I don't have to do. That exactly. And so we landed, I just got a new chore chart. So it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Oh, this is such good timing. Yeah, no timing.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

I know. One of my favorite paper companies, I love I love all things office supplies. But we the one that we get our meal planner from, where we have the meal plan and it has the grocery list over on the side. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

They have This is an actual piece of paper. This is not an app. This is an actual piece of paper.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Oh, okay. Yeah. An actual pad of paper. I refuse. I will not. I know this like flies in the face of us being technology forward. You are such a dichotomy. I am. But when it comes to these things, there's just something about writing it down. So anyway, I got the thing. My oldest has three chores. Two of them were ones that I carried over from the previous system. One is setting the table, the other is emptying the trash, the little trash cans and replacing their bags. And that's something that's a big chore. There are four of them. And so she gets trash per per thing. But it's a way to, you know, keep that going. Because really, we really should empty those on a more regular basis than we have. And so this is.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Oh no, we do the full-on like pyramid of trash thing until like it gets to the point where things are falling.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Right. I I think she might have put that on the or wanted that on the list because she'd already done it once that week. And so just like gets paid for something, then she's already done it.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

The smallest possible amount of benefits.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah.

unknown 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

So setting the table, emptying the trash. And then I asked, I asked her if there were any other chores that she wanted to commit to. And this is where I think the there's a distinction between chores and expectation. Before it was like, if you want to make money, these are the chores that you can do that I will pay you for. And now it's like, these are the things that need to be done. And my expectation is that you do them. And so without being reminded.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Well, I that is maybe a conversation to have. So Because I would say that is another aspect of why I think a lot of parents don't do this in this day and age, is because there's so much effort that comes from the mental load of reminding the kid to do the thing that once by the time you remind them four or five times, you could have absolutely done it already.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

For sure. I think it's the reminder on my part is reminding her to for the opportunity. So with setting the table, it's remembering my oldest responsibility is to set the table. Hey, it's time to set the table. Come and get the the forks and the dishes and and really set the table. So we know that it's going to be maybe not every day. There are going to be times when my husband sets the table and doesn't give her that opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

But so where are you landed? If she doesn't do it, then she doesn't get paid for it. Correct. So that's yet another mental load that you have to carry, which is whether or not she did the thing which is the first time. Which is why the list is like Okay. So explain, explain the process of the list.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

So the chore chart has seven check boxes. And and then the chore is listed out. And so for each day that she does the chore, we we just put an X there. And then at the end of the week, we tally it up and pay her.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

You do, not she does. You put the X. Correct. So you're verifying that she did it and then make the check.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Yes. And we had a minor safhoo where she said, Well, I I deserve to get paid for that, essentially. And I said Because she didn't get the opportunity to do it. No. Because your husband had just done it. Because she partially did it. And she said, I set I set the table. And I said, You didn't. Because what I expect when you set the table is that everybody gets a fork.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Aaron Ross Powell This is where the expectations is important to make sure that you understand like what is meets expectations and what is anything below meets expectations is not isn't not a right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

That's the And so she set her place, and I think she gave everybody forks, but she didn't sp set anybody else's place. And there was maybe a mix-up where she put her plate, I don't know, your son's plate, and anyway, resulted in lost food, which I really hate wasting food. It really it lost food.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Ugh because where did it go? Did you find it?

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Did you fly to Neverland? It had to go in the trash because it was not consumed. Like I had given she took her portion, which was larger than my son's portion, which was smaller, and gave him her portion, and then she got seconds because she wanted she needed the larger portion. Right. Anyway, that's way down the rabbit hole. So that that is the chore process, is she does it, it we verify that it meets expectation. And from there, I mean there there does kind of have to be opportunity. Like if those little trash cans aren't full at all, I don't think it makes sense to take them out. But if they're like half full, I then I think it it makes sense to take it out.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Interesting. And so you you haven't had any issues with your other two kids not having this quote opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

No, because we said it starts in third grade.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Oh, okay. Uh-huh. So it's like my chewing gum rule. I have a rule in my house that there is no gum before five. And that is a great rule to have as somebody who gave her three years. I don't know where I came up with it. I think it was just really convenient in the moment to say, like, oh, you can't, you're not going to be able to get a good one. Right. You don't have enough teeth yet.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

You can't chew. Yeah. Yeah. We just said, you know, at nine or third grade, it that feels like the right age to be. I think there are there are still expectations of the youngers. Yeah. And they're not taking on big chores for everyone. They are only doing the things that they are responsible for. This is an added responsibility. But my nine-year-old is so smart because she says to the younger child, the middle child, I will pay you if you do this for me. Right. And so, like, they're managing their payment. And I'm kind of like, you know, I don't want to bust an entrepreneurial spirit as long as the things get done.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

That's funny. She's literally outsourcing her chores.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yeah. So that's where also where the expectation is. We did expect her to, or we folding her laundry was on the chore list last year. And she just, she was not, she was like, no, I don't want to. And then we would fold it.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

I don't know any kid that cares about wrinkles in their clothes. Or maybe there are some, but I've never met one.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah. And so the kids are responsible for putting their clothes away in their drawers. And in whatever state they feel like it. No, my husband folds all of the laundry. Okay, so you guys fold it and then they're responsible for negative. And that's just part of the citizenship. But she it was part to teach her how to fold her clothes because she was just kind of slapping it together and I was like, this is not acceptable. You will you will fold your clothes in the correct way so that it is tidy, so that it can fit in your drawer and all that stuff. So I that's probably influenced why she didn't want to do it. But she may come around. She actually does really like it, but it, you know, it the laundry day is on Sunday. And Sunday morning, she doesn't always she's not always jumping to do the thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah. Oh man. Lose structure. I wish. I wish. No. No structure when it comes to laundry. It's really my. That's like that's how it gets to. It's like, who needs underwear tomorrow? For me, that's how it is.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

That's when that's when I do my laundry. Yeah. And my husband, I'm terrible. Like when I was at home and it was my job to manage these things, it was fine. Like I got it done. And I did way more laundry, way more laundry back then than I than currently we have.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

With little kids, you have to. Like there is no skip, there is no skipping laundry day with babies. Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

And we did cloth diapers. So we were also, there was just a lot of laundry that was happening. Every single day we were doing laundry. I was doing laundry. And and it never sat for a really long time. Like it never sits in the washer. Sometimes it sits in the dryer. But when it comes to but now I I am so bad about that. This is my truth-telling moment. Like my laundry was in the dryer for days. He had to do laundry for himself. So he took my laundry out of the dryer, put it in a basket, and I know he has been timing how long that basket sat there. And how long it took. I would love to.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

I mean, this would be gross, but an experiment like where you put like a piece of deli meat or something like that, like in a bag near the laundry basket, and just see like how bad does this piece of deli meat get before this laundry is moved and put away. Yeah, it's it's like a time bomb.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

I don't know what my aversion to it is, but it's just so hard. Like I will do everybody else's chores around the house before I will put my laundry away because I'm like, it's a victimless crime, but it's not, it drives me crazy.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

So victimless crime.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I know.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Like I'm the only person who's walking around without pants and it's losing experience. I don't know who enjoys putting their laundry away. If you enjoy washing, drying, and putting away, folding and putting away your laundry, please let us know. Because you're probably the only person that we know that enjoys that. And the two of us are certainly not though. That it just it's a it's a hateful experience. I hate it. It is.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Anyway, so yeah, so that's what I'm thinking about. We've sidetracked down the chore thing. Way. But I want to hear what is going on in your world, how are things? And you said you intimated that you had maybe something to unpack today. And so I'm curious if you want to talk about that for a little while.

Why Vacations Feel Better Later

SPEAKER_01 36:43

I did. I well, I I just got back from vacation. So we took our family vacation very late in the summer season, and I was on vacation, and it's not like I wasn't enjoying it. I was absolutely enjoying it. There were lots of things to love about it. However, it kind of occurred to me that vacations are the best later. Later. Like not when you're in them. So I didn't know whether this is a me thing or whether this is an everybody thing. But to me, it was like looking back on vacation, it feels faultless. Or you see those moments of like everything went wrong and now it's funny. Like, so like even the bad stuff seems to kind of be like over time get rose colored. Yeah. But when you're in them, and again, it's not like we had a bad time. We had a perfectly fine time. But I was like, I wonder how I'm gonna feel about this vacation five years from now. Because I bet, I bet I'm gonna feel way better about it than I currently do. Because I was thinking about some of our older vacations, some of our like very first family vacations when we had my oldest and middle, but we did not yet have my youngest. And the first one we went to was Cape Cod. And I think of that as like one of my favorite family vacations we've ever taken. So my daughter was, I don't know, two. My son was like five, maybe. There's no reason why that should have been a good vacation. We also went to Cape Cod in May when it was too cold to do anything. It was also COVID. Everything was closed. So, like, everything was closed because it was preseason, COVID, and I had a toddler who was still napping, and I'm maybe just out of diapers, maybe still in diapers. Like, there's no reason why that should have been a fun family vacation, but I think about it so lovingly now, looking back on it. And I'm like, so this vacation is probably gonna seem like a dream come true five years from now. Right. You know, even though it was in the moment, it was like nice, fine, lovely.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Well, so I kind of want to look at this from two different ways. One is what is happening in the moment that's taking away from your enjoyment, and then looking back on it, what it what are the things that are enhanced in your memory of these vacations that is present, more present for you after the fact?

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I don't, I don't even know. It's not that I'm thinking back so much on like details. It's more just a feeling that I'm that I'm remembering back to. And and yeah, and like even not even family vacations, but like vacations that I took, maybe like road trips that I took with my mom. And so we went back, we went to Maine, and I maybe 10 years ago didn't remember that trip, uh road trip with my mom to Maine. And I kept thinking of all of these like wonderful places that we went and all that. Like, I don't think it was like transcendent. I think it was like like at one point we stayed in this like kind of shady roadside motel, and maybe it's to do with pictures because I look back on the pictures of that trip and they're all like smiling and perfect and happy, and like maybe that's what comes through is like those snapshot moments. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but like, yeah, it's just a sense memory, it's not a specific. Like, I remember this one fun thing that we did. There are a few of those, but I think those really fade over time. Those those don't get stronger, those get, I think, less clear and weaker. So I don't know. I don't know what there is to unpack other than like, I don't know if this is me or if this is everybody.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Well, that's kind of why I'm I'm scouring my brain is to think about if if I have that same experience. We I think in when I'm in the moment in vacation, a lot of times what I don't have is enough time to myself. Where it's like just our summer vacation, my husband says is maybe one of the best vacations he's ever had. And he said it like in the car on the way home. I mean, it was instantaneous. He was like, yes. It was immediate. That was it. He knew that that was yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking in where I just I was like, ooh, I just like I want to go out and explore by myself for a little bit. And I didn't, I didn't have that. And it was still a it was a wonderful vacation, but I that's what gets in my way when we're in family vacations, is like I need alone time because I have so much alone time during the week. It feels like a it's like a shock to my system to not have any time where I am just like sitting by.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I am so glad you said that, actually. Side sidebar because I've been thinking about this also, and I couldn't figure out why. And maybe this is the key, maybe this is the like key that I needed because I myself have been craving more alone time. Now, to catch everybody up, I've had the summer completely off. My kids have been in care full time, except for when we're on vacation with them, and I have been not working and at home by myself most days alone with freedom of choice of what to do. It is so luxurious. When I'm with my family, I st I crave alone time more than I did. And I'm like, why is that? I'm getting more of it. Why would I need more on top of my more? But maybe you just unlocked it. Maybe it's because I'm getting used, it's now become my homeostasis of like I am used to and I'm I I love and have always loved being alone or getting alone time, I guess. So maybe that's what it is, is like it's becoming more my norm. So I have a higher expectation of getting it.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yeah. Maybe. I think that definitely I craved alone time more starting after the pandemic. Like up until the pandemic, I think I would have owned that I was an extrovert. And that pandemic really, I was like, nope. I was an introvert who was put in very extroverted situations and had to respond.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Because you're a normal human that can do that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah. I think I'm probably an ambivert, but it's like I became more aware of my energy shifting, like when what things were energizing, what things were not, what things depleted me. And so I think of that as like on vacations, like I need recharge time. Yeah. Which is weird because like you're on vacation, the whole thing is recharge, but I need like recharge from allegedly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

And now that it's That's what they bill it as.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Right. W when you have small children, it's like keeping your kids alive and a different zip code. You know, it's all is it really a vacation with with children? But now that I'm like I'm thinking back to that, I had some glorious afternoons where I just read, where I just like sat in the hammock and read and that is absolute that should absolutely count as alone time. But it's like Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

So that's like what people dream about when they think of like what is the most wonderful experience you can imagine. Like nobody bothering me sitting in a hammock with nothing to do or with one thing to do. Yeah. Which is read.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

But it it really makes me think like that's something that I really need to plan into times. Like I need time in this case we were on a four by four beach. It really wasn't foot friendly to to walk around and that like I couldn't just go off exploring. You know, like you really have to drive everywhere. But if we do have if we're on vacation in a city like I need I maybe need to schedule in a morning or an afternoon and ask my husband what he needs so that I can just kind of get out and explore and go to a coffee shop by myself and like have that. You know me. That's my favorite and AI suggested it so it must be true to bring it all full circle. Yeah. It's I got to I think yeah that there's like that anonymity piece you know where like I am not anonymous when I'm with people who are my family.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

And like I love being anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

I love same being out and experiencing something and like without having anybody know.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

That's one of the main things that makes me a city person I feel like is that I love being anonymous and there are some people that really don't like that feeling. And for me like I just love it. I love it. I love walking down the street and having nobody like recognize maybe I could never be famous. Not that it's really something that's knocking down my door but like I think I would really dislike that aspect.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Gets in the way of solitude.

Alone Time, Anonymity, And Memory Books

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Yeah. But basically where I came to with with that was to think okay well that's why I really do and love and really am incredibly like militant about doing the picture books the I just use shutterfly and just you know stick all the pictures in them. But I think that's why that's so important to me is because I think the more it's immortalized the better it gets it's like it's like aging a wine kind of in my mind. Yeah. And the the Cape Cod trip was the first one that I did that the first one I'd ever done that with. Oh so you're wearing those grooves over and over again relieving that's what it is. I think that's exactly what it is. And so you know some of the benefit of going on vacation is the aftershocks I guess. Yeah. The knock on sort of yummy vibes that you get when you come back because maybe the vacation was good but maybe what you get afterwards is in some senses better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

That's and how can we I think that's kind of where I got it makes so much sense in that light because all of the kind of rough edges that were maybe like nuisances or irritations in the moment they kind of smooth out over time. Oh they're totally gone. Yeah you have no memory of that kind of stuff. And so being able to look back and be like wow that thing that gave my best friend agitive when I described it like being at the restaurant not getting not getting service or whatever. Yes. You know like that kind of it just kind of drifts away it becomes a a funny story and not something that's like very cutly expensive is even remembered you know I think for this for this trip it's going to be the three story spiral staircase that gets remembered as like what were we thinking?

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Did you have to go up and down that every day oh yeah we so my husband and I were on the third deck of the of the townhouse or whatever it was. So and and when I say spiral staircase I mean think of the narrowest possible like almost like you would see on like a like a fancy ship or something. Like something that would take up the smallest amount of physical space.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah like it used to be a fireman's pole and then they put a staircase around it.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yes. Yes and it also like would greatly shake going up and down it. Oh my gosh. When even even the toddler would go up and down it it would like oh quake a bit. That was terrible so yeah so I think that's going to end up being one of the things that does carry on is like remember that it's pretty funny. Wow. We also had quite a few close calls with like medical emergencies and things like that. So it occurs to me I know nothing about this vacation aside from the state that it was in. Yeah. Well I was at one point I was in a coffee shop standing next to it was this world's smallest coffee shop. I don't know if it actually held that record but Guinness should get in touch because it was so tiny and so hot. And I was standing next to this girl and another girl who's with her looks at me and we look at her and she starts falling out. I mean legitimately like losing consciousness right next to us. And I and I I kept asking the other girl questions assuming that she knew the answers because she was with this girl and I think they must have been co-workers or even strangers because she had no answers for me whatsoever. Wow. And then I thought well I'm a strong person. I can pick up this girl you can guess what you can't with dead weight you can't like your your strength counts for nothing. Luckily there was I don't know some sort of bodybuilder very of course like only two feet away from us because world smallest coffee shop and he was able to kind of like pick her up and take her to safety but it was it was a flurry of activity and the ambulance came and it was a whole thing. So I got to do the whole like you call 911 like that I got to like my like emergency skills got to kick in and I got to like direct the action. Wow yeah that's intense though that one should go in the memory book somehow. I went straight out the door as soon as somebody called 911 I was like I am out of here I am I am no longer useful. Yep. Wow so anyway so on that note I'll make sure to put that in the Shutterfly book.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Yeah just like uh maybe get their logo from their website or something you know just pop it on there. Yeah little ambulance sticker goes right next to it.

Takeaways And Season Two Sendoff

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Wow we are getting towards the end of our time thanks for unpacking with me absolutely what are you taking away from our conversation I really need to make that book I guess and and and the whole chore thing I think I like you really helped me kind of see the like it could be I I think I tend to make things a little bit more complicated than they need to be same and take it just take it down take it like take the aperture way down and say like this one kid needs to do this one or two or three things. Yeah. End of end of story. Like that's as complicated as it has to be. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

And I mean it is it was a little hard having the oldest have disposable income and not have in the middle not but they'll start next year and then she'll be able to and then the child still regularly forgets what money is for and will like just give it to people or destroy it.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

So I don't think she should be having any cash money right now.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Yeah so maybe nine is a good age or 13 nine is a good age yeah yeah as my husband would say money can be exchanged for goods and services it's on refrain is that from schoolhouse rock oh it's probably from Futurama I don't know oh okay that's another good reference.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Yeah and another good animated reference well all right then well thanks James next time you're on the hook for an unpack so it sounds good to you hearing what you got to Jess and Lisa we've got stories to share from my heart to your ears lots to unpack there you won't wanna miss the deep into life with just a list tune every week you won't wanna miss the deep insulat