Lots to Unpack There
We’re Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between. We’re navigating the “messy middle” of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Each week, we’ll share something real from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it’ll inspire and help you do the same—wherever you are.
Lots to Unpack There
Lisa is a Social Crockpot
Jess and Lisa explore the changing nature of social connections and unpack their contrasting approaches to building relationships.
• Beginning with a discussion about the decline of casual social gatherings like potlucks
• Reflecting on how the pandemic accelerated our disconnection from casual adult socializing
• Examining how parents now prioritize child-centered activities over adult gatherings
• Lisa shares her "breadcrumb" approach to relationships—revealing herself slowly and strategically
• Contrasting Lisa's measured approach with Jess's preference for immediate deep connection
• Discussing how Lisa's approach evolved from trying to be perfect for everyone to authentic but measured
• Exploring their different "rings" of friendship—Jess with fewer close connections, Lisa with a wider middle circle
• Reflecting on the transient nature of relationships and how people move between different levels of closeness
• Appreciating the complementary differences in their friendship styles
We'd love to hear how you approach relationships! Are you a breadcrumb-dropper or do you dive deep right away? Connect with us on social media and share your thoughts.
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Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa, and Lisa we're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland.
Jess:This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.
Lisa:We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Jess:So each week, we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that, as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are.
Lisa:Hiya Hi, that was a nice folksy salutation from me, hiya.
Jess:You getting ready to go to the hoedown?
Lisa:Yeah, you know I thought I'd do a pig in and I don't know A pig in. I ran out of folksy things really quickly. That was my bad for starting that.
Jess:Yeah, yeah Well, lesson learned.
Lisa:A pig in, I think, is like a potluck. Yeah, I think it's like another term for that. We didn't use that, we said potluck. Hmm, yeah, I think it's like another term for that. We didn't use that, we said potluck. We also said potluck which is funny, given that we're in two completely different parts of the country growing up that we would have the same term for that.
Jess:But it's so interesting because you call it a potluck. You said the word pagan. My initial thought was I have never heard that term before. My initial thought was I have never heard that term before, but then, like a phantom memory came from the back of my mind. Okay, people called it piggin at the agency all the time.
Lisa:Oh, well, yeah, that was a thing. Honestly, I think it is a relatively common term in this neck of the woods, if you will. Yeah, I definitely hear it more now here than I ever heard it back it was. It was pretty much just potluck back at home, yeah. But yeah, pagan, yeah they do.
Lisa:I think there's another term for it too. That's escaping me right now. There's yet a third way to call everyone brings a dish. Like I don't know why we have so many options for this, but also we don't do that enough. I'm just gonna I'm gonna put it out there. It was a very common thing to do when I was growing up and I think in the decades preceding my birth, in the 1980s like it was a very common thing to have everyone bring something, because then it puts less pressure on the host to make all the food and I feel like I don't go to hardly anything that isn't work related. That is potluck style or pig in style, and I kind of want to bring it back. I want to bring it back because it really would do that for a party. It would completely take the pressure off. I have actually heard and this is unverified, not that most of what I say is verified, right, but this is unverified.
Jess:Again, there is nobody fact-checking this podcast. Nobody is back checking this.
Lisa:Nobody is taking that time. But I have heard that socially like we do not have parties like we used to. We as a society, especially American society, does not have like a casual party like we used to, where it used to be incredibly common on a weekend to go to a party. Now I feel like we go to a lot of kids' parties at least that's what I see in my age group, in our age group that parties themselves for adults, by adults for adults, are very rare compared to what they have been in previous decades and generations. So maybe if we brought back the potluck we could bring back the casual hang, adults to adults, and we would all be more connected and happier. That's like soapbox for the day.
Jess:I don't disagree at all. Yeah, but I'm wondering, you've got me thinking about the parties that have happened in my adulthood. Yeah, and I remember before the pandemic our friend group got together pretty regularly. I mean everybody was hosting one of the summer holidays. There were at least, I mean, I would say, even into the fall we had. There were at least one or two things happening in the fall. Yep, I remember that. Maybe not spring. So I'm wondering if this is like a pandemic thing that we just stopped. I think the pandemic didn't help.
Lisa:I think we were already on a decline generally and then the pandemic happened and it just accelerated this disconnectedness between people and it became the norm to not be in person with people for a while not not forever, obviously we're we're very much back in person now, in 2025. I think it it just put the fast forward button on that disconnectedness or lack of getting together for the sake of getting together. It seems like there has to almost be a reason, and I think in generations past you didn't need an excuse to do it, you just did it. You just had dinner parties. I'm thinking probably in the 1950s and 60s it was very common to have your work acquaintances over for dinner your boss, his wife or her wife or, let's be honest, in the 50s and 60s it was his wife For sure and I don't know anyone who has hosted their exclusively a dinner party for their work colleagues.
Jess:I don't think those dinner parties were along the potluck thing?
Lisa:No, no, no, no, no, yeah, no, not, certainly not, but I mean it was yet another group of people that you would have spent time with socially. Yeah, that we I mean, apart from like the odd happy hour, and even that, I feel like is very rare compared to what it used to be when I started working 20 years ago, population sectors or if that is mostly, I don't know why I'm thinking.
Jess:well, I do know why I'm thinking of mad men, but like that demographic, yes, very much white collar, trying to move up, trying to establish yourself, totally, I'm sure, shoulders yeah, there were status reasons for that, of course yeah, and then the other thing that I think has really shifted since then is most of the time there were not dual working parents.
Jess:And so the burden of putting on and hosting really fell to primarily the wife, yeah, and that just really isn't there anymore. And now I'm wondering what can we extrapolate from that if women were primarily the people that were making these opportunities for connection, and now their energy is elsewhere.
Lisa:Is on their own work.
Jess:Yeah, yeah. What is that saying about our roles in society and what matters in connectedness?
Lisa:I think we could pull that thread a long way.
Lisa:Oh yeah, there's a million little avenues to trot down on that one. But apart from all of the societal and anthropological deviations we could take, I just love the idea of just being in a social situation with people. I think the other thing too, as I'm thinking about it, is that the focus of parents has really shifted as well, and it was very much I am reminded of this constantly by members of my family that like it used to be that the kids went along with what the parents were doing, not the other way around. And whether that's true or not, I will say my observation and my own experience is very much.
Lisa:My life is geared around things that will be enjoyable at the minimum for my kids. It's at least a consideration most of the time, if not the primary thing, like that's what we go do, things for their enjoyment mostly, and having a dinner party with a bunch of adults would not be their preference by any means. They would not find that entertaining whatsoever unless I was bringing, you know, a bunch of kids along with me. You know, you know there was a bunch of kids their age, in which case that would be entertaining for them, but I don't know.
Jess:But even the idea of dinner party and, like an adult, only dinner party is so-.
Lisa:It's exhausting. Bananas to me, I mean.
Jess:I also had this idea you know, I think it was part of my idyllic adulthood. It's like, oh, and we could have dinner parties with these people. And I mean before I did have people over for dinner, they weren't dinner parties, but like we would invite people over for dinner. But now, with kids, it's like a whole thing, like if I'm at it, there's no easy way to do it.
Lisa:You can't just do it.
Jess:And I. It is not all about alcohol in a dinner party, but like if I'm at it, if I'm hosting a dinner party, or if I'm at a dinner party, yeah, I want to have a nice glass of wine or some other adult beverage along with the dinner and that just doesn't. I don't know, maybe this is part of like getting older and having kids in the age range that our kids are Like I'm thinking about bedtime. There's no dinner party. That's going to end at 730. Right, so that means that either no good one, yeah, no, no good one. So are we hiring the babysitter to put the kids to bed?
Lisa:For the duration. What are you doing?
Jess:with your kids, and so the whole thing. It is a little. It's interesting. I think maybe that's why we moved to more of the brunch space, because there was more opportunity for that, or even the summer barbecue. But you're right, even as I'm approaching that, we're going to be out of town for 4th of July.
Jess:By the time this airs it's going to be after 4th of July. But I was thinking like, well, I guess we can't host 4th of July, so we should offer to host Labor Day. There are like 10 weekends between 4th of July and Labor Day. Yeah, exactly, why does it have to be around holiday? Why does it have to be Exactly? It's that bias.
Lisa:If there's not a purpose to it, you can't justify it to the people that you're inviting, because then it's like, well, we've got, you know, 50 million other things to do that are going to take precedence then, and I think that's a little bit it.
Lisa:It's like when you center it around a holiday, you get a little bit more of that immediate buy in like right, oh, I am a person who likes to celebrate minor holidays.
Lisa:I think I will say yes to this thing when, if it's just, it's a summer barbecue, you're going in your head and I'm taking kind of the most cynical approach to this but you're going oh well, we have to go out of town the next week, we have to the kids have travel, sports or whatever, and you're like listing all of these reasons why that doesn't fit into your paradigm because there is no anchor for it, which is like that's what I want to. If I could kind of wave a magic wand and do away with any aspect of this, it would be that it would be like let's just get together because connectedness is good and being with people that you like is generally fun and enjoyable and it will bring joy to your life. That is the only reason that really needs to be had. But I don't think that paradigm really fits in the society, at least the society and culture that I'm a part of in Maryland in the United States. That is not a pervasive one. I don't think.
Jess:From my perspective, I need more control than that when, if I'm having people over, I'm wondering how much food do I need to make? What dietary restrictions do I need to consider? How do I make sure that everybody has something to eat and that it's enjoyable? And maybe that's kind of the point of the potluck is that then everybody has at least one dish.
Lisa:Bring something that you yourself want to eat?
Jess:Yeah, that they can eat, but it's I don't know if I'm going to. I love the idea of having like the neighborhood thing where you know just, the kids are coming over and I'm feeding them and, like you've described, yes, we have. We have a bit of that yes yeah, but but making it for the adults too. Didn't you have a? There's some sort of event where you had a meal at your house?
Lisa:yeah, we had a progressive dinner.
Jess:A progressive dinner, yeah yeah, yeah, and I had another friend who did something similar.
Lisa:But that was like no small amount of effort. That took us weeks to plan and make sure that everyone was free, and we did it in the week between Christmas and New Year's because, generally speaking, most people are home that week, which made it kind of cold to go from house to house.
Jess:Yeah, I mean it worked fine. Yes, it's like a neighborhood bar crawl, but In our case no alcohol, because nobody drinks alcohol in our neighborhood hardly. Very few people. So what I'm hearing is dinner parties for me in your neighborhood are a no-go you would.
Lisa:I mean, it's not like they frown on drinking. They just a lot of the people just don't drink, which I feel like is a little bit of a I don't know a view of things to come. And as the next generations are kind of coming up, I'm I'm hearing again this is totally anecdotal, but I'm hearing and sensing that drinking is kind of on the decline in popularity in general.
Jess:It definitely is my husband, and I talk about that pretty regularly. Yeah, and I have many, many clients and acquaintances who do not drink, have not been drinking.
Lisa:And it makes total sense. I am a drinker. I do drink occasionally, mostly when I'm with my friends. But you know, the reasons for not drinking are very sound. It's like oh, I don't put poison in my body on purpose. Okay, I know, yeah.
Jess:That seems pretty reasonable. They are very sound, but I still enjoy it.
Lisa:Yeah, I still do it, so I'm going to go. Yeah, as of 2025, lisa is still considered to be a drinker. I know this because every time I go to the doctor, it's one of the litany of questions that I get asked every single time when did you last drink? How much did you drink? How much would you say you drink on average, like I don't know lady? Like one or two a fortnight, I don't know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should start saying fortnight more, you should yeah, bring back fortnight and potlucks and I will do it simultaneously.
Lisa:We will have a potluck every fortnight, the fortnightly potluck.
Jess:The fortnightly potluck.
Lisa:The fortnightly potluck. You heard it here first.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, thank you for going down that slightly odd bunny trail with me as I think about that I genuinely don't know where it began, but I loved it.
Lisa:I loved every second of it. Me too, I loved every second of it.
Jess:Me too. It has my gears turning about just kind of the social direction and what we're prioritizing as a human people. Yeah.
Lisa:I think people who have had kids are prioritizing their kids. My main takeaways from all of this is that that if you have children generally, speaking from my perspective, what?
Lisa:I see, is that becomes priority one. Priority two, if you're a working person, is generally your job, and then like down the list from there spouse, family, friends, all of those things. Yeah, I don't necessarily think it's bad, but I think, like all pendulums, the best place for the pendulum to be is smack in the middle, and that is the place that it is very rarely. Yeah, yeah it is, so I guess it's you, are you? You you're unpacking today, is it you or is it me? I thought it was you.
Jess:I feel like I've been unpacking a lot lately. I definitely have things to unpack.
Lisa:I also have. I have one thing.
Jess:Why don't we start with your thing? Okay, and then, if we have time, we can move to one of my things, but I feel like I've been unpacking a lot.
Lisa:This is a sort of I'm going to call this like a leapfrog callback. Too many metaphors together, but we've talked a bit about your desire with in meeting people, to go deep quickly, almost with immediacy.
Jess:It is something that I have to consciously meter Like rein in a bit. Yeah, yeah, I'm very conscious of it. That's my tendency and not everybody's up for it. I really have to read the room.
Lisa:Yes, I mean I think that's true of all of us, in whatever style you have. But the thing that I was sort of unpacking is I was realizing that while I love and appreciate that in you, that is not me Well of course it's not.
Jess:We're different people.
Lisa:I know we have such similarities. I thought it was perfectly reasonable that it would be me. But as I meet a lot of people, I was sort of thinking how do I like to meet people, how do I like to understand who they are?
Jess:Oh, this is a rich topic for unpacking, because I think it has changed for you, oh probably I've changed so much about myself in the last decade, yeah, yeah, so, anyway.
Lisa:So what I was trying to understand is because this has come up a few times for you that you really really like to like data mine who a person is, and not just you know in general, but like immediately. I was like, well, if that's not me which I guess I suppose in a very rare situation it could be if, like, all of the stars are aligned and the person is clearly down for it, sure, but in general I am definitely a low and slow person. I like to meet a person and then and I do this very like natural, this is not in any way a calculated thing that I do, but I leave breadcrumbs out and if they take the bait of the breadcrumb, I will like, very specifically, go one layer below that and one layer below that, which means that I have to interact with somebody 10 to 20 times in order to show them like enough about me for them to know who I am as a person. And it takes a very, very long time to get to that point with me, and I think you're right that that was not always true for me, right that that was not always true for me, but at this stage that I am, I am definitely this like low, slow breadcrumb lever, and if they do not pick up the breadcrumb, then they don't go to that next level, they like stay at the current level.
Lisa:And the only reason that I know that I do this is because I've been analyzing my own behavior over the last couple of weeks, which is why I've kind of waited until now to have this unpacking. And yeah, and so I'm interested to kind of unpack with you, like maybe why I have chosen this as my current way to get to know people where I have come from, in terms of where I used to be, which was, I think, more like you, and where I used to be, which was, I think, more like you, and that I liked to really, really like almost have someone sort of walk the emotional plank and see if they were willing to jump off with me or not. And now, like I'm much, much more aloof.
Jess:That is super interesting and I'm glad you mentioned how you used to be. I would say, if we go back five years, I'm just thinking about how you started to get to know your teammates at Amazon time period.
Jess:There were a lot of things going on, for sure, but I'm remembering kind of. It almost felt like you were profiling them in a way of like what are the? How do I have this person figured out to know how I need to interact with them to achieve those whatever results? Yeah, to achieve those, yes, whatever results. And so I'm. I have that in my mind. I'm sure that there are increments between then.
Lisa:Yes, I think there are I think there are some incremental changes, but I would say you're probably spot on is that I wanted to be just right for each person. I wanted to show up as, like, the perfect version of what they needed. Yeah, At the time I was interacting with them and guess what folks that don't work Because you come off as the most disingenuous person.
Jess:It so what was what has changed for you from then to now?
Lisa:One is realizing that it doesn't work. It's a bad call, because, especially if those people all know each other, they're going to get real confused. And also, how do you interact in a group setting then For sure, yeah, you're going to end up having to choose one. It's gonna, you're gonna end up having to choose one. I think in my case, I just showed up a bit manic, maybe, or scattered, or I think sometimes I chose being perfect, right, because I'm like, well, everybody will like somebody who's perfect. Spoiler alert nobody likes somebody who's perfect. It's not a fun person to hang out with, and so it was a lot of trial and error. I think that got me to where I am now. A bit, I think another reason is I was burnt quite a bit in friendships in particular, from going too deep too fast, giving too much of myself to somebody too quickly, letting them see who I am. In some cases, I was even some of that information was used against me. So which is?
Lisa:which is just gross, it's just not an OK way to be, but you know lessons learned, lessons learned.
Jess:So so you think that that kind of made you into that. Well, if, if I've been burned by being fast and deep, then then I will be more strategic in my approach. Yes, and that is creating, like this, different versions of yourself.
Lisa:Yes, I think that's absolutely the timeline.
Jess:Yep, and then from there it's like, well, that didn't work, so maybe let me try to be a little bit more aloof and perfect, but then that also didn't seem to work, oh yeah.
Lisa:I remember having this vision of who I wanted to be. Think of it, in its best iteration, as your personal brand. I guess Sure, okay.
Lisa:So in the best iteration of this concept, it's your personal brand and you want to come across this way and this way and this way when you talk to people this way and this way and this way, when you talk to people, particularly in a professional setting, and I was like I want to be this like elegantly aloof, kind of cold but also kind person who knows what she's talking about and rarely speaks, but when she does it's brilliant. Where did that come from? I think it's some amalgam of like Gal Gadot and I don't know, like it's probably a lot of who I saw, like little bits and pieces of what I saw and like mentors that I had and things like that. But, as the audience is probably aware and as anyone who knows me will will happily attest, that is not me at all. Like none of that is is really me. No one has ever described me as graceful or aloof or anything like. None of those words described me and it.
Jess:That was what I'm wondering. Where did that come from? Because that just doesn.
Lisa:I just thought that somebody like that would really get places, get into rooms, be the person that people wanted to call on to do the big things. That would be the kind of person they would want and I wanted to always be that person, even if I didn't want to do the thing. I wanted to be the person that they wanted to do the thing. Okay, so, yeah. So the timeline, you have it completely correct. Like, got burnt going too deep too fast, decided to switch it up, especially when I changed jobs and I got to reinvent myself at Amazon after leaving the government. And I got to reinvent myself at Amazon after leaving the government. I've tried this, you know, best version of myself for each person, kind of schizophrenic process. Then the perfect, you know, let me be this vision that I have of myself, kind of thing. And I think when I got to reinvent myself again once I left Amazon, I decided that the real me was the best me.
Lisa:But asterisk footnote, maybe not all at once and I really, really, really found that worked the best that I've tried so far.
Lisa:Yeah, hence the low and slow methodology. Hence the low and slow. Exactly Like not everybody deserves every part of me, every part of me. They deserve me, the real me, not some falsified projection of me, but the real me with my real voice and my real thoughts and my real opinions. Like that was good enough, which was not always the case in my mind, that that information was good enough. But once I decided that it was good enough, it was just about tempering it. You would I don't know, there's a process in cooking, you'll know it you have to add a bit of the hot stuff to the not hot stuff before you can add it all together. So that's what I had to do. I had to come up with this tempering methodology, and I think that's more or less what I have today. It's funny that I still do it in my private life. So it used to be also that my professional persona and my private persona were very different.
Lisa:I remember this, yes, and people would hang out with me outside of work and they were like who are you? You are completely different. You're fun, you're interesting, you're, you're like all of these other things and they're like in work. You're not like that at all and I'm like, oh well, whoops Again, just trying to yeah, I guess.
Jess:I mean we've. We've talked about this recently I'm not sure if it was on the pot or not but this idea of continuity of self, and maybe not showing all of your cards because, as you said, not everybody needs to know all of those things, and I do think it's important to be aware of overshare and ensure that you know other people are again reading the room, like how deep does this other person want to go?
Lisa:with you, because if you're sharing all of yourself and they're never going to share that much of themselves, it's a doomed relationship.
Jess:probably You've got me thinking about how to describe the like fast and deep part, which I think we'll we'll get to in a minute, but the the idea that somebody from different parts of your universe could see you and not be confused about who you are and how. That, honestly, it's easier, because there are just fewer things to keep track of.
Lisa:Yes, it is, and I think it's fine to have a different, maybe lighter, jovial way of being outside of work and still be yourself the whole time, like I think that's fine to be, but I think the observations that I had were you're an entirely different person.
Jess:Right.
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:So I think one thing that I'm curious about is this idea of breadcrumbs. It still feels very strategic.
Lisa:It does a little.
Jess:Keeping track of who is on which level and what does it mean for them to pick up the breadcrumbs? How do you know if, maybe, in order for them to drop a breadcrumb, you've got to do so? How do you navigate that?
Lisa:Yeah, it's a really fair question, and I would say the majority of people never pick up the first breadcrumb, or maybe they don't even get one because in my mind I've thought there's not enough chemistry to even leave a breadcrumb, and so it's not really about having to keep track of who's on what level, because so few people even make it to the point of showing even a little bit of myself and seeing what happens with it. So that's how that is, because I mean, we're talking less than a handful of people at any given time. That's even on this journey. Most people I interact with in my life that are not my good friends I interact with seldom, so I'm not even. It has to be. There has to be enough continuous interaction to even warrant entertaining the idea of leaving a breadcrumb for somebody to pick up.
Jess:How are you defining breadcrumbs Like? Can you give an example of what that might look?
Lisa:like they're amazingly good question and I should know the answer to that.
Jess:Because I'm just thinking, while you're thinking, that I'll do the shower thing. What did you call it? The shower, the shower principle. The shower principle because so much of your life is out loud and like your values. I'm thinking about your season board. Anybody who comes into your house is going to see that they're going to know what you're about. About your season board Anybody who comes into your house is going to see that they're going to know what you're about. And so I'm thinking like there must be, there must be aspects of who you are that don't even constitute as breadcrumbs. They're the things that are maybe to detect if chemistry is there or that anybody would know about you.
Lisa:Yeah, I think, a breadcrumb. What I'm, as I'm sort of defining it now, as I'm thinking about it, is any piece of myself that isn't apparent to a person who I'm. So if, if I'm meeting somebody in the context of my kids which is the majority of the time any information about my kids or like just stuff that they can see I'm married, I have three kids Like stuff that they can see, that wouldn't be considered a breadcrumb. That's just general chit-chatty, whatever. That's all that kind of stuff. Yeah, something would be about, let's say, I mention where I went to school and what I majored in, or something personal about how I grew up, or my interactions with my family, or my relationship with my sibling, or something like that. Something that, like it requires follow-up, like that, something that, like it requires follow-up to know the information. So it's just left there and it's almost that.
Lisa:The improv principles do you know? Like the basic rules of improv? Well, the first one, yes. The first one is yes and right. So you put out the information and they have to say yes and in order to get that information back from you. So it's that back and forth, a little bit that I'm looking for to see, like, does this person have interest in who I truly am, who I am before this moment, who I am underneath this moment, who I am as a person outside of my kids or my spouse, or my work, whatever context they know me in side of my kids or my spouse or my work, whatever context they know me in.
Lisa:But okay, so this is like how you safeguard your information or how you determine when to release a breadcrumb. Yeah, it's not that I'm really protecting the information. The information that I'm providing is not confidential. It's really to gauge their level of interest. Exactly Like their level of interest and then my level of interest back.
Jess:Yeah.
Lisa:So simultaneously.
Jess:Right. So what is the the interaction between their level of interest in you and your level of interest in them?
Lisa:I think if I'm putting the breadcrumb out there, I have a level of interest. I think if I'm putting the breadcrumb out there, I have a level of interest, but that will be determined by whether or not they pick it up and do something with it a little bit, yeah.
Jess:So this is so. It's so interesting for me because it really it like this sounds like you're kind of putting them in the driver's seat of whether or not you're interested in them.
Lisa:Not really, because if I didn't extend that offer in the first place, like that's my choice to do, it is so I have the first call.
Jess:Generally speaking, yeah, I think what I'm hearing and what you're saying is a desire for reciprocity, like you're done, putting in more effort with people than they're willing to put in with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess.
Jess:Or having like the mismatch of intimacy, yeah, where, like, you just want to be on the same level and have kind of the, the expectations of them, and and like, as you're walking kind of on the same level, you might be going deeper and deeper into the pool exactly, I want it to be an even footing.
Lisa:That's really the thing. Yeah is that I want it to be even footing. But there have been plenty of times when you get down to a certain level with a person and then, like there is a hard line that appears. That's like, well, this is not going to go any further than this for this reason. Sure. And it's usually a values mismatch that it becomes apparent at a certain point, where you have to get down to the values level first, though, See, I think I start at the values level first, though, see I think.
Jess:I start at the values level, like my fast and deep is to get to the values level, because I know lots of people that I am not fast and deep with, you know Right, and so I definitely I don't have to be at that level with people. But that's the curiosity is driven by, like when I ask you how you're doing, I want to know what's happening in your soul. Yeah, and what's happening in your soul is connected to your values, and so that's going to tell me a lot about our compatibility and what level of friend or colleague or whatever we can be on, especially if that person goes I'm okay and that's all there is to it, then you would go like okay this is not for me.
Lisa:Yeah, exactly, you like you want to have good, interesting conversations with people about who they are and if they don't have that level which some people don't and no shade if they don't, but like that's not really somebody.
Jess:You like, yeah, that's not gonna be my people, but it's. It's like where do we go from there?
Lisa:yeah, I think. I think the end game is the same, it's just I am much more measured in it and if I'm only going to meet someone once, I okay forgive me, audience I might not care who they are in their soul. Like, I might genuinely be completely fine with being in passing with people.
Jess:Well, yeah, I mean, how many people have I met once? I think a lot depends on the context, and at the same time, I'm like I might only ever meet this person once. So what responsibility do I have, as a fellow human, somebody who carries this light inside of me, to allow other people to see that light or to make an observation about them that they are carrying a light that they didn't know they were carrying?
Lisa:I don't know Total callback to the pig in conversation but you are bringing connectedness in small interactions without having to stage a potluck every time you want to have connectedness with people. I think that's what you're doing, is you're formulating those connections to your fellow humans, to your fellow Americans, to your fellow Marylanders, whatever. Like the people around you, the people in your immediate vicinity that you interact with, you are creating, even in a small way, connectedness, and I have kind of taken the tack of not doing that, I guess.
Jess:I'm appreciating this conversation because it's making me curious about what's happening with you, but it's also making me introspective about what's happening with me and the differences between us. But like, what is that saying about what you need, what you have, how you're prioritizing these things?
Lisa:Yeah, I think part of the reason as I'm sort of sitting here thinking about this part of the reason that I don't do that anymore is because I have you.
Jess:Like your friend, quota is kind of full. I think it is Not just me, I'm not your only friend.
Lisa:I mean totally not my only friend, but I have such great people in my inner, inner, inner circle and hopefully some of those people hear these words right now that like it makes it so that I am not hungry for that connectedness because I have such great connectedness. Yeah, but to your point like, should I be that conduit for other people, given that I have my bucket all nice and touching the brim? Should I be that for other people and give?
Jess:them that connectedness, knowing that I am never going to be able to continue that level of relationship with them because I have all that I need. Well, I think this kind of goes into like what's the purpose? I'm imagining this bucket that you have, that's like your cup, runneth over, it's brimming, and you have these other people in your life who are thirsty and you're saying like, hey, man, I cannot be on this. Whatever it is you're needing, like I can't be on the reciprocal level with you for that, but I can give you a drink. Yeah, the connectedness becomes like not just how can I help you, but who, who do I know who can help you.
Lisa:Yeah, I think my interaction with people is way more self-serving than that.
Jess:That is so altruistic. Well, that's like I would say. Similarly, I am good, Like I am not, I'm not lonely. I have these amazing people in my inner circle. I have a little bit of capacity to have kind of those next level, yeah, People that I'm like friendly with. I'm thinking about my. I have a Marco Polo business owners group and like we're very real, but they're not my besties. You know, we're still getting to know each other and figuring out what the level of sharing needs to be. So like I have some capacity for that. But when I meet somebody like last night I was at an event I met a coach she told me what she was interested in and I was like, oh my gosh, you have to talk to this other person, this other person, because I think you would just have so many things to talk about.
Jess:Like maybe that'll never go anywhere. But now I can't speak for her, but I think in that moment she felt seen, yeah, like her interest didn't totally bounce off of somebody, right, even though I don't have the capacity you absorbed it and then you gave it back to where it needed to go.
Jess:I just held on to it for a moment, yeah, and then I, you know, redirected and I had, yeah, the only reason I say, I think that, like I think my read, make that, if you wanted to bring connectedness, I do think connectedness it's one of my meta values. I have my core values and I have the three line values and like connectedness and resilience and bravery are kind of the meta values, so for sure that that's why I do it. But what do you want to? How?
Lisa:do you want to use that? As you were talking, I was realizing that there's a little bit more nuance to this than I was maybe describing before. So, yes, my core group of women that make my life amazing and listening, you will know who you are. That is good, Like that is fine. And the people that I know in passing, that I know their name and much, basically nothing else. I'm good on those people too.
Jess:Yeah same, I will continue to know them.
Lisa:But like like, I am not seeking out those relationships For sure.
Jess:Those are the people that your kids are in scouts together or on a sports team. We're not here to necessarily be best friends or cultivate friendships, but we're friendly. Yes.
Lisa:However, I am realizing that the middle ring, the ring of people that I like them, they like me we have more than just something surface level and common.
Lisa:We have more than just pleasantry conversations. I know things about them that are not common knowledge. They know things about me that are not common knowledge. I would say and this is my first attempt at this is that there's maybe a rotating amount of about 15% of those people at any given time. So when I'm leaving breadcrumbs, it is not necessarily to get to the point of that inner circle, it's to find out who are going to continue to be in that middle ring, because there's always a fluctuating amount of those people. Those people come and they go, they move away. You no longer see them anymore because they don't have that thing in common that initially brought you together. There's always at least 15% of those people that are attrition at any time, and so when I'm leaving breadcrumbs for people, I am auditioning them. I guess in my head to be in that second ring for whatever time they're going to be in that second ring.
Jess:Really you're assessing. Are you a situational friend? Yes, or do you have staying power?
Lisa:Yes, and the level of mutual interest is what's determining the staying power, exactly Because I want to be interested in them and I also want that to be reciprocated at a hopefully similar level, and I think there are probably at this stage in my life, there are probably at least a hundred people in that outer circle.
Jess:Outer outer circle.
Lisa:No, no, no, In the middle circle.
Jess:In the middle circle.
Lisa:Yes, yeah, oh, that's a lot of people, it's a lot of people.
Jess:I don't think I have that. I don't think that exists, because the other thing that's coming to mind for me is the CliftonStrengths and I am a relator, one of the things. It's like that dynamic that you were saying you get to values and then you decide if you're going to go deeper or not. I go quick to values because if we're not a fit, yes, that's cool, totally, but I'm going to know it right away. But if you are, I'm in. I think, the way I look at that, I have my very, very few people.
Lisa:We're talking like a dozen or less.
Jess:Definitely under 10. Like I would say they're the people that if I have news to share. Like I pick up my phone, I'm like who do I need to tell? I need to tell Lisa, I need to tell my husband, like, who are the other, who are the next three people?
Lisa:Because after that point then you get a little bit of fatigue of like notifying people of things. You're like, okay, now I'm, now I need to take a break.
Jess:Exactly, and it's I'm also thinking about it Like if those people are local, are they who are my emergency contacts in my daycare center? You know, like that kind of thing. And then the next level out I would put probably that's like my friend's level, so there's my inner circle and then there's my friend level and the friend level level. So there's my inner circle and then there's my friend level and the friend level. Those are the people who know quite a bit Very vulnerable. Conversations are had both ways, but I would say in that level that is still very metered. Those are the people that I don't want to say I would take a bullet because that feels very dramatic, but I would definitely go out of my way or inconvenience myself to help those people if they were in need.
Lisa:Okay, yeah, yeah, so you're actually talking about four rings.
Jess:I think I have at least four rings, and then the people in that, like what you're describing as the middle ring, I would say those are the colleague level people where we know some amount of information about each other. Definitely there could be some situational friendships. Yes, not common knowledge, but I would say, for the most part, like I'm not talking to them very often, right. And then there's everybody else, but I would say rings one, two and three for me is under 20.
Lisa:Whoa, really yeah, oh, my goodness, definitely under 30. I don't know, I kind of want to challenge that and have you count, like not right now, but I want to report back.
Jess:I made a list the other day. You did, I did. How do you just have that at the ready right now? Well, I was working on it before we started podcasting.
Lisa:You were working on coming up with a list of all the people that you hang out with and know.
Jess:People that I want to connect with is what I was working on and like those are the people in that ring of like. I want to see if they are still in that ring or if they've moved out, Because I think that's a very painful. They are still in that ring or if they've moved out, because I think that's a very painful. It feels very painful when people move from one ring to another out at where words yeah, I see it kind of beautifully.
Lisa:So two of my favorite I don't know pieces of media, I don't know what to call it, I don't know what category to put it in. Lost, lost in Translation Sophia Coppola movie with Scarlett Johansson and Bill Murray. It's pretty old now and she Matters.
Jess:I have actually seen that you have. Okay, awesome. I haven't seen she Matters.
Lisa:No, no, that's a book. Sorry, oh, I haven't read that. That's why I said media.
Jess:Yeah, it.
Lisa:So they're both about the transientness of connection, mm-hmm, and I love that idea of somebody being desperately important in your life and then being gone from your life, mm-hmm, for whatever reason. I think that is a absolutely gorgeous piece of life is to see people moving in and out of those circles for you, you general, you me in this case. But like I love that, I think it's. It's so funny that you would describe it as like a painful process. It absolutely can be painful if there's some sort of trauma associated with somebody, like if, as I've had, a friend die, that's a painful, traumatic experience where you're losing that person, um, or you have a huge, you know massive fight and you no longer speak to one another. Absolutely I would put that in the painful category. Luckily, that's been a very small number of my, my relationships in my life otherwise that doesn't feel painful to me.
Jess:Yeah, I mean, I think death would be would be painful. I have not experienced that.
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:You know, but if there's a falling out, I'm kind of like that was a choice, because there was a choice to repair or there was a choice to to not.
Lisa:And so.
Jess:To distance. I think what's more painful for me and maybe it's a symptom of an uneven footing is when there is something that's very special and then it just kind of like, falls away, it just falls away, and in spite of effort to keep it going, that's what feels very painful effort to keep it going. That's what feels very painful, or the realization of like, wow, you know this person. I used to think that if I had an emergency, I could call them and they would be there.
Lisa:And now, I'm like they would not be in that list, yeah.
Jess:They wouldn't, and like if I had news to share, I wouldn't even tell them. You know that I feel the loss in that.
Lisa:I totally understand what you're saying. I completely see it. I just don't see it that way.
Jess:Yeah, no, it's cool yeah.
Lisa:So that's just what I've been noodling over, and I have really loved, like taking this moment to think about this. I mean, we have talked about this so much, but I love just getting the space to think through something that is not critical to my existence. Oh yeah, like that is such a luxury. It's so delightful, it's so delicious, I love it, and so this has really, really, really been that for me, like getting the chance to just truly deep dive into this the way that I currently because, as we've mentioned, there's been quite an evolution with the way that I relate to people and how I formulate relationships with people so I've really, I'm just so grateful for it.
Jess:There's an increased security in yourself. I think that has evolved over the last five years. Yeah, maybe, maybe it was part of that. Realizing that who you are is the best you to be yes, but I think so too. That is really. It is really cool. So did you unpack what you wanted to?
Lisa:I did. I definitely did. What are you taking away? I am taking away the really sublime differences between the two of us, which are super fun. You know how I love to find a difference between us. I think you often say that like we're way more different than we are the same. Do I say that you do?
Jess:quite often, and there are a lot between us.
Lisa:I think you often say that like we're way more different than we are the same, and I say that you do quite often, and there are a lot of differences. I see you and I as super, super similar, so I love finding little differences between us. It makes me feel like I don't know. We're compatible rather than identical.
Jess:Yeah, yeah, I think I've always've, always.
Jess:I mean, I do think we're we're similar in a lot of ways in that, how, how we see obviously the values and even you know how we might react to specific stimuli, like I think we might react in similar ways depending on what is going on, but I I think I've always approached it from a compatibility, like you have been both the reason that I can say I think if I met myself, I would like me and also like this very distinct person who is complimentary, like I think there's a a mellowing that happens in our interactions.
Lisa:Yeah, next week's episode will be our last of season, one, which is so exciting.
Jess:I can't believe it.
Lisa:It is nuts. It's been so fast and fun it has not felt even remotely like what I would qualify as work. So Jess has done a lot of work. Lisa has done almost no work. Let the record show Jess is very clearly indicating her maximal effort in this process. I would also like to let the record show that Jess did not say those words and yet she's not contradicting them?
Jess:Did my face say that Entirely possible? Yes, but I agree it hasn't. It has been work but it hasn't felt like work and I'm I'm excited because I think it's a milestone to get to the end of season one and also this really cool opportunity to figure out how we want season two to look Definitely, and we will be calling upon every single person who listens to our episodes to tell us how that should go.
Lisa:Well, thanks for unpacking, lisa. Thank you, this was so much fun. I mean, they're're always fun, but some just feel more fun than others, and this felt really fun for me, mostly because I was probably talking about myself no, there was a.
Jess:There was a fair bit of uh self of of both give and take. Yeah, but it was a fun. I love it when we have a topic and then it just like you know, it's super random, but then it becomes a little unpack yes, like the pig in.
Lisa:Like the pig in.
Jess:All right, sis, enjoy your day.
Lisa:We'll talk to you later. I love you.
Speaker 1:Love you. Bye From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't wanna miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa. Tune in every week you won't wanna miss, miss. Dive deep into life with jess and lisa yeah, except any and all comments.
Lisa:What was that, oh?
Jess:are you hearing the leaf? Was that the damn lawnmower again? Oh, it's been going, it's been going for like. That was the first time that I heard it, just that.
Lisa:Oh yeah, it's right outside the door. It sounded like a really deranged cow. I'm not going to do what I heard because it will be fun for no one.
Jess:It was in the outtake. I would like to point out that also you just called it soda.
Lisa:Yeah. So yes, I did call it soda. Mostly I call it soda pop Because I like to combine my present and my past. So in my past it was pop exclusively, and here in Maryland it is soda exclusively. And so I go with soda pop, generally speaking, because I then I can piss off both at the same time, and that you know.
Jess:If you just start calling it sody pop, then you'll harken back to your, your, haya yeah, my haya howdy y'all no, I didn't go quite that far.
Lisa:No, not quite that far, it's not a particularly good one if you're not on the inside of it. I know, In fact it does make us laugh. It makes me laugh anyway.
Jess:My three-year-old told me today that he's allergic to jokes. What?
Lisa:What must have happened in his young life to make this allergy?
Jess:I don't know.
