Lots to Unpack There
We’re Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between. We’re navigating the “messy middle” of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Each week, we’ll share something real from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it’ll inspire and help you do the same—wherever you are.
Lots to Unpack There
Tears in the Zoom Room: An Epidemic of Professional Loneliness
Jess and Lisa unpack the phenomenon of professional loneliness, particularly how increasing responsibility and leadership roles can lead to fewer safe spaces for vulnerability and authentic connection.
• Professional loneliness manifests differently than social loneliness
• Leaders often lack peers who understand their unique challenges
• Creating space for emotions at work is vital yet challenging
• Vulnerability paradoxically builds trust rather than diminishing it
• Imposter syndrome creates a self-reinforcing cycle of isolation
• Most people judge us far less than we fear they do
• Asking for help can actually strengthen professional relationships
• Solopreneurs face unique challenges in combating workplace isolation
• Volunteering and community involvement help rebuild connection
• Self-judgment often creates barriers that prevent authentic relationships
If you're experiencing professional loneliness, ask yourself what you need to act in ways that might bring other people in, and consider letting go of self-judgment or perceived judgment from others.
Want to support the podcast and help us keep creating content that matters? Here’s how you can get involved:
Join the Conversation: We want to hear from you! What resonates with you from this episode? How are you navigating your own journey? Connect with us on Instagram @lotstounpacktherepodcast or send us a message at unpack@riverdropcoaching.com.
Subscribe & Stay Connected: If you love what you hear, subscribe and leave us a review! Your support helps us reach more women who need a space like this. Let’s build this community together!
📬 Stay Inspired: Sign up for our Substack, where you’ll get fresh insights delivered straight to your inbox. Whether you choose a free or paid subscription, you’ll be the first to know what’s next: Substack
🎧 Bonus Content: Want exclusive access to behind-the-scenes moments and extra episodes? For as little as $3, you can support the show and enjoy bonus content that’s just for you: Support Us
Every bit of support helps us keep bringing real conversations from our hearts to your ears! Thank you for being part of the journey! 🙌
Hey, it's Jess and.
Lisa:Lisa, We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week.
Jess:You won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa. We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.
Lisa:We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Jess:So each week, we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that, as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. Hello.
Lisa:Lisa, hi, how's it going?
Jess:Oh, it's good. It's the end of another very busy week for me and it was a shortened week. And I kept thinking back to the last time we had a shortened week I think we talked about it as you know you have, if a holiday falls in the middle of a week, it's like very condensed and how. This time we had a holiday in the beginning of the week and it's like I've had five days of work in four days, but it doesn't. Time just feels very wonky this week.
Lisa:That's too bad. That's too bad that you didn't have four days of work in four days. That's way better.
Jess:I mean technically.
Lisa:I had four days of work in four days but it just, but not if you're piling on everything you didn't do on the holiday, that doesn't count. That's like that's just delaying the work.
Jess:I don't think I am busier this week, or I was busier this week Tuesday through Friday than I would otherwise have been Tuesday through Friday, okay, but it just feels like it's been a really long week.
Lisa:It's been a really long short week.
Jess:It's been a really long short week, exactly yeah, how are?
Lisa:things in your world.
Jess:Oh, we love contradictions.
Lisa:Oh, it's lovely. I've had a really good week actually. I've had a really good week actually. I've gotten a lot of walking, in which I love and I think I've mentioned a couple of times on the pod. I love to walk and I love to be outside and it has been mostly pretty conducive for that, which I've been really grateful for and I've just had a lot of really good conversations with people and meetings and I've been very productive on the personal side in terms of making, like, doctor's appointments that I've been putting off and having conversations that I've been putting things that have been piling up, and this is really what I wanted to spend my professional pause. That's what I'm calling it now.
Lisa:I wanted to spend my professional pause doing was doing all of the stuff that I don't prioritize in my life when I have a full-time plus plus job, and so I am knocking off some of those things. The bigger things still persist. They are still in the back of my mind, but the little things the like quote unquote easy things which are are not actually easy, but they're. They're not things that take weeks to do. So I still have some home.
Lisa:I don't want to say renovation, because I'm definitely not going to renovate any aspect of my home, but like changes to my house and bigger things that are going to take several iterations, attempts, attempts at it so I don't know what exactly I would classify that as but like things that you're not going to get done in one shot. Yeah, but I did have a situation this week where I entered into working on something I thought was going to take multiple times and I got it all done in one shot and I was very surprised. I kind of ended up with this like result at the end and I was like, oh, I just did, I just did it, I just did the whole thing, and I was so surprised.
Jess:Yeah, this, this phenomenon happens to me all the time Really. Yeah, where I will think something like it. I, I in my head, I think it will take a really long time to do, or it will take multiple passes or whatever. And then I do it and it takes like five or 10 minutes. I mean, it's I really like that different. I grossly overestimated how much time it was going to take. And then the opposite thing happens to me too, that's for sure. That definitely happens to me where I go and I'm like, yeah, it should only take me 10 minutes.
Jess:And then 10 minutes later you know, I'm thinking about my laundry room right now I'm like oh, it'll just take me 10 minutes to this thing, and then, of course, like everything has exploded all over everything and then I have to put it back and yeah.
Lisa:So I don't like the domino tasks those are my least favorite where you're like I can't do this thing until I do this thing and I can't do that thing until I do this other thing. And the domino effect, I don't. I don't like those things because it's not plotted out. But I put this thing into phases. I was like, okay, I'm going to do phase one of this thing and I'm going to get that done, and I did. And then I realized I was like two seconds from just finishing the entire thing and it wasn't really this three phase thing that I thought it was going to be. So which is?
Jess:amazing, because then you get the bonus of doing the thing and also yes, you know having more time.
Lisa:It was related to my previously talked about on the pod dental issues of like having, you know, major dental work that needs to be done. That I, like most people who are in the position that I am, which is really really, really hate dental work or car work is the same. I feel like where you just put, I feel like people will see like a light in their car and be like it's fine, it'll go away, it's no big deal.
Jess:I feel like there's so much to unpack in just that that used to be me a little bit more.
Lisa:What are the warning signs? What are the indicator?
Jess:lights that we have in our real life that we ignore for long periods of time.
Lisa:Yes, let's put a pin in that one and come back to it, yeah, anyway. So I thought I was going to just do research into a new dentist, and it involved me calling a bunch of dental offices and getting a lot of no's they don't do that, no, that's not us, whatever. And eventually I just called the right place and they were open and they were accepting new clients. It was just like, oh, I guess I'll just book an appointment then, and so I did, and then it was done. It was crazy. Well, the booking is done. The booking is done. The dental work is far from done.
Jess:The dental work is not yet done.
Lisa:Not even started. Yeah, yeah, but it was a very emotional thing too, which is why I had been putting it off. It was a very, very emotional process for me and for anyone who's listening at home. Yes, I did cry the entire time I talked to these dental offices. And yes, I did cry the entire time I was making the appointment, but then afterwards I was like okay, I did it. I did the hard thing, Now I just need to do the next hard thing, and you know that way.
Lisa:So yeah, I'm a dental basket case, it's true. Nothing like crying to a random stranger on the phone who's just trying to help you book an appointment.
Jess:Hey, I'm sure you weren't the first.
Lisa:Well this place specializes in people like me, so I guarantee you it is not the first time they've had these conversations with crying people.
Jess:It will not be the last and honestly I don't know this kind of came up in. There were a couple of themes that came up in my coaching this week, but one of them is around this idea of of it just being okay to cry and, yeah, most people who cry in my session will start apologizing Like you don't.
Lisa:I hope that goes away with the next generation or maybe the one after that, but, like I hope, in a couple of generations, the apologizing. I hope that goes away with the next generation or maybe the one after that, but I hope in a couple of generations, the apologizing for crying and I mean no judgment, I did it too. I apologized profusely for my crying on the phone to this woman, but I really hope that that is something that goes away. It's no longer a thing.
Jess:Yeah, I had one client apologize and then just and say oh, I'm sorry, I just don't know why. I'm so emotional about this and I'm like it just is yeah, there's nothing to apologize, for there's nothing about that.
Lisa:This is hard for you and that's totally okay, yeah.
Jess:And and I did tell that client I said if I tear up as a result, I just want you to know that you are not responsible for my tears. It's just because I also feel things that I see, I think there was a period of time where I cried almost every day, but like not not always happy tears or sad tears, like just I could you know I would witness something emotional and like the tears would be there.
Lisa:When was, when was this period Not that long ago? It was yesterday, it was it was, it was every was, every day, every day, every day this week yeah, no, I think I mean it was probably over over the winter, maybe okay, I don't know.
Jess:But like they weren't, they weren't all sad, it was just like man I. Sometimes they're tears of gratitude, sometimes they're tears of happiness, of just of awe, I don't know.
Lisa:Tears come in all, all different types it makes me wonder and this is the nerdiest thing I'll say today but like if, is it though? No, probably not, probably not, wait side tangent. I had a doctor's appointment yesterday and the doctor was like now I'm to get a little bit nerdy with you here and I was like go all the way, babe, I can handle it Right. But it makes me wonder whether, like, it's ever been studied, but like if different tiers, for different reasons, have different like salinity counts.
Jess:They do, do they really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they do, and it has been studied. Oh well, yeah, they do, and it has been studied.
Lisa:Oh well, okay, yeah, I guess I'm late to this party.
Jess:I don't know the research off the top of my head, but I did read an article. I didn't fact check it so I guess I shouldn't say for sure it has been done. But yeah, they have different purposes and have different tiers promote different things like oxytocin or.
Lisa:Oh my God, that's so interesting. It kind of makes the case to like cry early and often.
Jess:I feel like yeah.
Lisa:Like if your body is feeling like it's going to cry for some for any reason, like just let it, let it run, let it go, and I feel like I especially don't do that. I am one of those like suck it up, stifle it back type of people, typically, you know, especially when it's minor, if it's a major, if there's like a major waterfall happening and like something is really, really, really bothering me, which not much causes that anymore in my life, then it's kind of like there's nothing stopping it, just go for it. But if it's like one of those things where I'm tearing up, especially like at something maybe sappy or minimal or something like that, I really try to like hold it, hold it up and hold it back. I try not to around my kids, though, because I want them to see me react emotionally to things. Right, yeah, yeah, and I want them to react emotionally to things.
Jess:I can't imagine my kids apologizing for their tears. That is so weird to think about. The people who are apologizing to me for crying are somebody's kids who are apologizing for their tears.
Lisa:That's very yeah yeah. No one should ever like. I'm just like. The more I think about it, the more I'm like. No one should ever apologize for their tears.
Jess:I have seen my oldest kind of. You know she'll like stop herself from crying.
Lisa:Yeah, I don't know where that comes from, though a few years ago. But when he would cry at like a movie or something, he would kind of look at me with like a confused look on his face Like what, what? What is happening to my face right now? Like why are the things, why are my eyes wet? Is kind of what he would question to me. And I was like you're feeling things, that's an emotional thing that you're watching, and he kind of looked at me like okay, I guess I don't know. He was almost like a little bit like questioning of it, like why would this be happening to me? And I just thought like how cool that he's like experiencing that, those feelings, whatever they were, and being like ooh, this is new, this is a fresh feeling for me.
Jess:Right. It's kind of like that developmental age when kids realize that they are separate and distinct from you. Yeah, only this is happening, where it's like the feelings that they're feeling, that they're mirroring or that they're getting through empathy, those feelings are not theirs.
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:But their body is responding to it.
Lisa:Feelings are not theirs, yeah, but they, but their body is responding to it Exactly. And that's what I was, that's what I would try to explain to him. You know, in kid appropriate terms is like you're feeling their situation right now, whatever is happening on the screen, and he'd kind of look at me even more confused, like how is that possible? I'm not there.
Lisa:So it was it was one of those early lessons in empathy that you know. I kind of look back now and I sort of cherish and I'm like that I wish I could go back and do that again, because I wonder if I would have done it differently now, being that from this perspective, but it is a very like early form of empathy. That is like it was just so shocking because kids are not naturally empathetic in that way. Kids are naturally selfish in a lot of ways, like they have to be selfish in order to survive. So they're constantly thinking about things from their own perspective. You know, I'm hungry, I'm lonely, I'm sick, I'm tired, I'm all the things, and so to start as like a four or five-year-old looking at something from someone else's perspective and being sad on their behalf, that's a new emotion and it's really cool.
Jess:I wonder if that is that same kind of leveling up. Just looking, I'm not an anthropologist, but at some point you have to switch to what are the people who keep me safe feeling? And I should feel those things Like when babies they're crying and then you pick them up and they stop crying, and then you put them down and they start crying Like there's a closeness aspect of it, but also there's a theory that if you were picking them up and moving, you might be moving them away from a source of danger and so it would be most beneficial for them to stop crying. I might have just made that up, but I think I read it somewhere.
Jess:I love all of those types of anthropological questions. Yeah, I remember when my oldest cried from reading the first time where she, just she, was so invested in this character and this book and something happened.
Jess:The character made a really hard decision and felt loss and she was just sitting on the couch reading her book and crying and it was so beautiful. I remember the first time well, maybe the first time that happened to me, and it is just. It is a way to connect to somebody else's experience. Yes, and I think that the groundwork for a compassionate life.
Lisa:I feel like books can do that in a way that almost no other medium really can, because of the I don't know the just the descriptiveness of what you're experiencing. It just is a different way. I know that I have cried reading in such a different way than when I cry watching something or being in a real, in real life, I think I cry the least.
Lisa:Dental work notwithstanding those, those visual mediums and those. I don't know that. It just it hits you in a different place because they are well, let's be honest, book writers and movie makers and TV makers are good at what they do, and one of those things is evoking emotion all kinds of emotions.
Jess:Yeah yeah, I know we've talked a lot about tears, but I just have to say this one last thing about tears, which is that my younger two children will be crying and upset that they're crying, but this was mostly when my middle was about the age of my youngest, so when they were three.
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:And they'll kind of shudder in their breath and then ask for a tissue to dry their tears. And it is the saddest, most beautiful little thing and I have a tissue for my tears.
Lisa:It's very, very endearing, my youngest puts the tissues back in the tissue box. Oh gross, you know. And they're they're I have a tissue, a tissue, a tissue, amazing. Well, I mean, I feel like this is as good a time as any to transition into what you're unpacking this week. I feel like tears is a good is a good jumping off point.
Jess:Yeah, I think it is, because I think it's related. I mentioned I had a couple of clients this week who were crying in my office and my office being your virtual office, the Zoom room in which we are both communicating.
Lisa:That might be something that's already well-established, but I've never heard that before.
Jess:So oh, the Zoom room, yeah, yeah.
Lisa:I like that a lot.
Jess:I don't think I made it up.
Jess:One of the things that it occurs to me is that for those people and this is not just a this week thing, it's come maybe over the last several weeks I might be one of the only places where they can say things out loud and have space for those tears and whatever they mean.
Jess:And it seems like the higher up people go in a company or organization, the lonelier it gets, and it gets lonely in maybe several different ways. But the first is that you have fewer safe spaces, people that you can communicate with, and then, even as you are progressing and thinking about thinking in a more complex way and thinking wanting to advance and gain an edge and sharpen and grow, there are fewer and fewer people above you who can help you do that. And so that's a different kind of loneliness, where there's the emotional loneliness of just not having peers or not having safe spaces to let those feelings come out, and then also the loneliness of like being solitary in your own space. And I'm seeing kind of the flip side of this. It's feeling very meta, so like there's the leader aspect of professional loneliness, but then there's for me the aspect of professional loneliness which is that I create space for other people and yet that's not a space for me.
Jess:And so being able to find other places. I mean, we have supervision, we have mentor coaching. So there are mechanisms that exist, but really just releasing those thoughts and feelings that I've been making space for back into, not holding onto them, and making space for myself to have that kind of continuing development and processing time.
Lisa:Yeah, I mean, as you say this, I'm thinking of so many aspects of professional life that are lonely and you know the the change over to being virtual can be very lonely. I know that you went through a lot when you first started your business and you were a team of one. Oh yeah, and what came with that and the lessons? Talk about the ways that you combated that. I guess Because I think you've experienced professional loneliness in a really profound way and I think you also combated it in a really strong and thoughtful way.
Jess:Yeah, I think it kind of dovetails back into our conversation about belonging that we had some time ago, in that some of my professional loneliness that I've experienced in my life is because I wasn't showing up as myself, or because I didn't feel safe to show up as myself, or because, like there were people there who wanted to wrap their arms around me or you know, to like to be, so that I wasn't lonely but I didn't feel like I could engage in that level of of relationship.
Lisa:So I would say, as you were their boss, like why did? Why didn't you feel like you could engage?
Jess:I mean, who knows, unknown to this day. I think it's. It was like it was what we talked about before, of just like being confident in showing who I was, and really Right, right, right.
Lisa:More of an authenticity thing.
Jess:Yeah, I think there was an authenticity thing. I think there was a chip on my shoulder thing. I think there was maybe an internal belief that was at play that I wasn't there to make friends play, that I wasn't there to make friends, I was there to do a job, and so having that belief was in kind of direct conflict with my but I want to be a good leader and manager, and so they were butting heads sometimes I've yo-yoed between manager and individual contributor a couple of times, and this is more of an individual contributor mindset that I would bring with me into being a leader or manager.
Jess:Interestingly, one of my clients just did his Clifton Strengths yeah, and he and I share one of our top five strengths, and so I was reviewing the book about what that strength is and its relator, and that strength in particular is like you hold people out a little bit while you're getting comfortable and then you go really deep and so you can form these really deep connections, and so I think there was some of that too that was contributing to my professional loneliness in different aspects of in different offices that I was at in the government and then also when I went back, when I went into the corporate world.
Jess:Yeah, so I think there there were a lot of things that were at play there. But specifically when I left there and became a solopreneur, I think the most profound ways that I noticed it were that I didn't have daily interactions with people anymore and so I didn't have the slack ding. It made me think about part of what I think I carried as a manager was being helpful and responsive to my team. Yep, and then I didn't have a team, then there was nobody to respond to, and so I didn't know how to be helpful. I didn't know what that meant in my life, especially when I was trying to figure out how to build a business and I didn't. I mean, who was I helping? Even like that I had to define, and so one of the ways that I combated that was by volunteering. I just Googled local volunteer opportunities, I got on some mailing lists and I just started volunteering, kind of at least once a week, as best I could.
Lisa:Yeah, I remember that now.
Jess:And that was really helpful to feel connected and feel like I was giving something to somebody else.
Lisa:It's an interesting thing to do to find out post-mortem what your identity was in a previous situation. It is yeah, to be like, I'm sure you well, I'm not sure but like it's very possible that if asked during that time of your life if being helpful was like a core piece of who you were like, maybe you would have said yes, but I doubt that you would have known how core it was to who you were as a leader until you left and realized like oh, I'm not, I am not responding to people's immediate needs, and that was like a big piece of what I saw as like my role in this organization. And I think that would be a not insignificant thing for people, like an exercise for someone to do in a role in any organization or any situation, any relationship, even to do in in a role in any any organization or any situation, any relationship, even to say like, where do I see my identity in this organism? Whatever that is.
Jess:Yeah, I think that's a really good point, because even one of the exercises I I did afterwards was thinking about really what is my job.
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:What are my responsibilities in each of my life roles and what are my expectations of myself, and really kind of getting clear on that identity, or if that was just the way that value showed up, in providing value to my employees or in providing value to the company.
Lisa:It did feel good to work on something with other people, it felt good to be in collaboration, it felt good to move something forward or make progress on something, and so, yeah, but if you were writing the job role for the job that you had, if you were writing it as if you were hiring your own replacement, would the word helpful have appeared anywhere? Probably not. That's what makes me think it was more about you and the way that you felt like your skills were best going to be utilized in that role, and not necessarily the role itself.
Jess:Yeah, I wonder now if maybe it's just that's how that's to me what it means. One of the things that it means to be a leader is to be in service to other people.
Lisa:Especially the people working for you.
Jess:Right, and so thinking about how can I clear brush or how can I yeah?
Jess:Remove all that junk Exactly Like make it so that they can just do their job and that they can grow and improve, and I think, yeah, there's a lot of that.
Jess:But then there were also just all of these relationships that came, I mean, especially towards the end. I had been in that role for four years, I'd been the manager of some of these people for multiple years, like we had relationships, I knew about their kids and their pets and their parents and like all of that, and so it was also just a way to kind of fill in, to be connected. I think that was the other piece of that not just being helpful to them but being connected. And so the volunteering really helped with that too, because it gave me more connections in my community, in my county community, in my county and the networking that I did, I think, really kind of brought my focus more local. So I got involved with my local ICF chapter. I got involved. I was that joined the board to help, like again, once again, have that community of people that I was working with, to build those relationships and move things forward.
Lisa:And that really gave you a coworker like feel with with several people, both the foundation that you worked for and with ICF too.
Jess:Yeah, yeah, and then you know other ways to give back and be connected and just be of greater service in life. Like I make it a point, it just feels good. It feels good but like I give blood every. Well, giving blood doesn't necessarily feel good, but it is something that I do every, however often I can do it every two months, I think and that is another way to kind of that I've used to combat the loneliness. It's just like every time something happens in the world that makes me feel like, oh, what are we doing here? I'm reminded that that is a form of loneliness and that there are things that I can do to be connected to other people.
Lisa:I have heard it said that self-care is really just being in service to others. Oh yeah, I think.
Jess:I've said that self-care is really just being in service to others.
Lisa:Oh yeah, I think I've said that, yeah, yeah, and I feel like one of the main antidotes to loneliness is self-care, and one of the main ways you can give yourself self-care not necessarily retail therapy, although pretty good too is being in service and being helpful and being needed and being I mean, reframe a thousand times however you want. I wonder, though, if your clients, like I know that you recognized your loneliness pretty quickly and easily. I would say, maybe for you it felt like it took longer to realize that you were lonely. But I wonder if your clients, or if the people who are in these positions that can't be vulnerable and can't be authentic, if they realize that they're lonely like do you think that they would make that connection directly? Because I don't know if I would.
Lisa:I have been a version of lonely in most of my jobs that I've had, particularly because I was the only woman, or one of very few women, or the only woman who couldn't do this or that or whatever. I think it's those barriers that make us lonely, but I don't know that I would have ascribed that word or that feeling to that without somebody saying so. What you're saying is that you feel lonely. I don't think I would have been able to make those connections myself. So I wonder if these clients, or if the people that you've interacted with, who are clearly experiencing loneliness, would even see that as what's going on.
Jess:That's a really insightful question, and I don't know that I have an easy answer to it, because loneliness it's like grief, it's such a compound feeling that it shows up in different ways, and so I think some of the cues that I listen for are when somebody says, aside from you and my spouse, there's nobody who's pouring into me, yeah. Or if they say I'm sorry for being so emotional. I don't know what this is, but I clearly needed space for this is, but I clearly needed space for this. And it's like I think offering words to clients for their feelings is sometimes the right thing, and other times, like it's better to to kind of ask them to describe it. Yeah, boredom is another one that comes up, but though it's, you know, it's a little bit different of a, of a compound feeling.
Lisa:I would imagine boredom as like the opposite of growth, maybe Uh, yeah, in a professional context, like if you're not growing, you get, you get. Stagnant. You get bored, you get yeah.
Jess:And it shows up as like a it's almost what are those things called but like the metal thing goes out and like grabs onto something grappling hook, that it shows up Like like you can hear all of the grappling hooks that are going out in the conversation.
Lisa:Break that down for me a little bit more.
Jess:Yeah. So it's like it'll show up in like scattered desires, like maybe, maybe I need to do this, or maybe I need to do this, or maybe I need to do this, or maybe. I need to do this, or maybe I need to do this other thing, or maybe I need this thing, or maybe I can do. It's like that verbal grappling hooks that come back to like but what's happening for you right now?
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:And they'll say things like just feel antsy, I feel restless, I feel itchy, I feel like like I need to be moving, like I'm stuck, like all of that. You know, all of those can be words that people use and then it's like would you say that you're bored, and then that's. But it's like, you know, after some amount of time. And so with loneliness, I also think there's maybe a bit of a social stigma against being lonely or acknowledging that you're lonely. I don't know why.
Lisa:But I think, maybe because people recognize well one, I think because if you're lonely, especially from a childhood context, it indicates if you don't have friends it's because you're doing something wrong, Kind of that stigma from way back when. But I don't think professional loneliness at least how we've described it has anything really to do with your social status, at least how we've described it, has anything really to do with, like, your social status. In fact it might even have an inverse effect where, like the higher social status you have in a professional institution, the more likely you are to be lonely. That whole one is the loneliest number, kind of.
Lisa:Or it's lonely at the top, or like any other song that you could really come up with, Like you would think, okay, a CEO really has no, they have to be strong, they have to be completely decisive and unified and all of this, but yet they're still a person and they're the only one at the top. So it's almost like an inverse of social status compared to how we would have experienced it as children, which is like if you're lonely maybe it's because you are mean to your friends or something and they don't want to spend time with you. So it's possible that there's maybe like a older definition of loneliness that kind of comes up for people and I think there's loneliness at both ends.
Jess:maybe where it's, the people who are at the top might be framing only that loneliness is over here instead of loneliness can be anywhere.
Lisa:Yeah, I'm not sure, and it's also it's a known health hazard like to be lonely, it's like a very well documented, like it's not carcinogen because it's not cancer causing, but it's like death causing, high mortality, high mortality, I should say. And so people might not want to be associated with with that, like, oh, I have a thing that is like dangerous right.
Jess:I also think maybe there's a story here where people might be saying well, I can't be lonely if I'm surrounded by people all the time.
Lisa:Yeah, yeah, but of course you can.
Jess:But of course you can, and not all people who are alone feel lonely and not all people who are not alone don't feel lonely. I think you got there. Yeah, yeah, that was a weird way to say that you had a really high percentage chance of losing your way along that one.
Jess:I did, I did yeah Bravo, I think I. I did yeah Bravo, I got there, yeah, and so it's it's interesting, I think it does. It does take a little bit of introspection, and in coaching it's it's kind of like who else might you have that you can talk to about this, or who you can share these concerns with, and so that was my next question for you is do you ever go into a solution space with people who are exhibiting these symptoms of professional loneliness?
Lisa:Do you ever say, like, do you have peers in other industries you could reach out to? Do you have? Well, I mean, obviously a coach is a great way to get through that, but do you get into that solution space, do you get into the naming it space, or do you just work on what's going on for them in that moment? All of the above.
Jess:I wouldn't really call that a solutioning space, but I think we've talked about this phenomenon where people kind of feel like they're backed into a corner and all they need to do is realize like they just need to turn to the left and they're no longer backed into a corner. It's kind of the same bit where somebody might say I don't have anybody I can talk to about this and it's, is that true?
Lisa:Yeah.
Jess:You know, is it really nobody, or is it that it's going to take some work to build the relationship to talk to about this thing?
Lisa:And sometimes it really is. That's tough to do without feeling like you're invalidating them, saying that they don't have any, but it's a really like tricky dance to do.
Jess:Totally, and I don't think I would use those words, you know. Is that true? I might say I kind of want to poke at that. Is it okay if I poke at that a little bit? You know as how you would approach it? But there's also, I think, the deeper truth, which is that even if you have somebody, if you don't feel like you have somebody, then that's who might you want to share this with? What would you need in order to share this with somebody?
Lisa:Yes, that's a very good question and I think that question, or different versions of that question, are really key in the idea that just because you're lonely doesn't mean you have to necessarily change the environment or the situation. You might have to shift something about yourself in that situation and that maybe that's a place to start. Maybe it is a no-win scenario and there's nothing you're going to be able to do to make that better, but maybe being more authentic and being more yourself and opening yourself up to the possibility of being vulnerable, for example because that seems to be kind of where we started with all of this but like, being vulnerable in a professional setting is a it's a tall order. Depending on your industry, depending on your reputation, depending on your standing within that organization, that is a really big thing. I personally don't think I have ever heard of a situation where someone was vulnerable in a professional setting and it was used against them necessarily.
Jess:I have, but I don't have specific examples but I feel like, so maybe that doesn't validate that, like I don't know any specific examples where I know someone firsthand.
Lisa:I've heard of people's words being used against them, certainly Like yeah, there's a lot of slimy people in the world and they'll turn your stuff right back at you if they have the opportunity. But I don't know if I see that as like being authentic or being vulnerable. I don't know. There's probably. There probably are instances where you know dirty tricks have been played and people's vulnerabilities have been used against them.
Jess:I also think it a lot depends on how close you are to the center of power, and I think more marginalized groups are probably going to experience this a lot more. Yes, when they show up in an authentic way and it's weaponized against them. I have had it's like the tip of my tongue story where somebody was, you know, expressing something to their manager and then their manager used that against them in a performance evaluation. Like I don't think you're ready for this thing because of what you said in this way and I think that's like probably a more common way of that showing up.
Jess:I remember at my last company we did a lot of work with the Gallup research, CliftonStrengths, all of that stuff, and one of the signs of an engaged employee is having a work best friend and it's really hard as a solopreneur not to have a work best friend. Thankfully, I am blessed with a very amazing best friend, best friend With a very involved best friend who refuses to leave you alone.
Jess:Yes, my unofficial chief operating officer and also just my close network of best friends. Like I'm super lucky to have that. But I remember thinking at that company I was like my manager is my best friend, what the hell.
Lisa:Yeah, what does that mean? How is this going to end? How do I make?
Jess:that work. Because, because there are things and I just I saw some something on Instagram where I was like, if you're thinking about leaving your company, definitely don't tell your manager lest you get fired for giving a two weeks notice or whatever. And I was just thinking like holy cow, how incredibly lucky I was that my manager was my best friend at work, who also was such a safe place for me to to voice that and was like there was so much trust there that.
Jess:I didn't ever fear that to mention that out loud would mean losing my job prematurely.
Lisa:Right, and I think that I mean, ultimately, that's the best kind of manager the manager that cares about their people as people first and employees second, and that's like that's a high about their people as people first and employees second, and that's like that's a high bar to hit.
Jess:But you know, it's great when you have one of those.
Lisa:Yeah, I mean, I aspired to be one of those which I think bringing us way back to the beginning is one of the reasons why it was so hard to go from that to from 60 to zero on the social interactions For sure.
Jess:I'm trying to think about what other forms of loneliness I've experienced and what I did to combat that.
Lisa:Can I circle back to the beginning of this, which is what are you unpacking about professional loneliness and what are you still, what are you still looking to discover about it? To be a better coach or a better human, or less lonely yourself, or whatever ultimate goal you have like? What are you, what are you finding out about this situation?
Jess:I guess I think what I'm unpacking is. I'm wondering if it is as pervasive as it seems to be and what are some of those indicators that we might have that what we are actually experiencing is loneliness, without naming it as loneliness?
Lisa:I think you hit on some of them, which is feeling like there's no one at work to go to Because there's a barrier everywhere you look. And this was definitely me in my last role, the one that I was just laid off from Because I really didn't have anywhere to go to, with the maybe exception of one of my employees who was one of my employees. So that was not really that was. There was a different barrier there as from a person to person standpoint, you know great, but not from a manager to employee standpoint. So I mean, I think that's a really good check-in point. Like, do you feel like there are a person or people you can go to and be raw and real? Not in a like I don't know, tearing down other people kind of way, not in like a. I feel like I want to just like totally trash on all of these people Not in that way, although that is a different kind of safety, I will admit there is.
Lisa:there is safety in that, I suppose, but in the way of speaking about your own truth and your own feelings without the fear that you're going there's going to be some sort of negative impact. That's a really good barometer to start with, anyway.
Jess:Yeah, and then maybe if you can acknowledge, like, if that, if that feels like you, if that passes the validation check of like yep, I am experiencing that, then maybe there's a question to ask around what are you needing?
Lisa:Yeah, or is that on your end or on their end? I don't know. I feel like there's something to kind of noodle through there. Is it something that you don't want to show that part of you, or you have been given evidence that they, whoever they are, cannot accept that part of you, right? Is it on your side of the street or their side of the street? Because if it's on your side of the street, that's worth interrogating further and saying like let's find out why, let's see what it is about that that makes you feel uncomfortable, right? Like yeah, yeah.
Jess:And if it's on their side of the street.
Lisa:maybe that's that, maybe you know, whatever, that's a different thing.
Jess:Mm, hmm. I think for the former it could be a story of I have to present a perfect face, yes, or anything less than perfect is going to be judged. And that's another weird thing Like are they actually judging, or are we judging that they are judging us, so we are actually the only judge in that situation?
Lisa:I don't know if all of the time that's true, but I think a lot of the time that is true, that we are projecting our own judgment that we would never feel about somebody else, but because it's us, we're totally entitled to feel judgment about our own actions or thoughts or whatever it may be. Yeah, I do feel like that is the vast majority of the time.
Jess:And we are. We are judging them to be somebody who judges us in that way.
Lisa:Yes, which is also kind of unfair. It's kind of like an unfair thing to put on somebody like, oh, you're going to judge me for this. Like wait a minute, you know me. Maybe's kind of like an unfair thing to put on somebody like, oh, you're going to judge me for this. Like, wait a minute, you know me, maybe I'm not like that, right, maybe I'm cool.
Jess:Who knows? So then, if it, if it is on us, then to say hmm, maybe I can let that go, yeah, or maybe I can test it on something that feels low stakes, to start, because vulnerability builds trust, yes. And so how else can we build trust?
Lisa:I actually have a story about this, because I came into my job a couple of jobs ago and I pretty much rubbed everybody the wrong way, a couple people in particular, and eventually I sat one of them down and I said, okay, be a friend here. What do I do?
Jess:I remember this and she's forgotten about this.
Lisa:Yes, and she said you kind of act like you know everything, ask people for help, ask people for their opinion, ask people to give you their insight or their assistance or whatever the case may be, because right now you have this air about you that you're perfect and that's not endearing. Wow, and it was more or less exactly that way that it was said to me. It was zero punches pulled.
Jess:By that point you had built that relationship.
Lisa:I mean kind of more or less. She was sort of the ringleader of people who didn't like me, so I knew I was pretty sure she was going to tell it to me straight. And boy did she ever. And yeah, that was. That was like a oh my God, asking for help and being vulnerable could actually be the key to people liking me more or trusting me more, be the key to people liking me more or trusting me more. And it was a serious lightning bolt of inspiration. I was like I can't believe it didn't occur to me to be vulnerable in that way, but I felt like I had to be perfect. I felt like if I wasn't, they were going to see me for the fraud that I was. It was a complete and total over-the-top imposter syndrome.
Jess:Oh my gosh.
Lisa:Yeah, imposter syndrome walking.
Jess:It's so funny you say that because this came up twice today, today. Today it came up twice.
Lisa:I love, I love how that happens. You know, you just get like constant reaffirmation of the same concepts and so the the one client similar.
Jess:I think that client might have even used the word imposter syndrome, but the takeaway was I need to ask people for help because I keep telling myself I can do it and I can do it, but I'm also telling myself that I'm inconveniencing these other people Exactly and they have information that I need. So I need to stop assuming that they're judging me as incompetent and just ask them, for what I need is essentially the takeaway and then the other one. It was not quite the same, but it's that question of like I need to know where I stand with other people and again, that judgment, like I don't want to be judged as dead weight or as somebody who's not adding value.
Jess:And so we talked about ways that we could, that they could start building some of those feedback mechanisms into their day-to-day, both for managing down and managing up.
Lisa:I really do look back on those imposter syndrome days as a very self-fulfilling prophecy cycle of because you feel imposter syndrome, you're overcompensating by trying to be perfect, which is putting people off, which is making you not get the information you need, which is furthering this feeling of not having what you need in order to do your job. I mean it just it goes around and around. It's really one of the most damaging and lonely. I was going to say To the point, experiences that you can have?
Lisa:Yes, exactly that is fuel for loneliness, because it oh my gosh, it's a feast for loneliness.
Jess:Yeah, wow. So now that we've solved the loneliness epidemic Sure Yep, in just 45 minutes. Yeah, what do people need to do? They need to ask themselves if they feel lonely and then start thinking about what they would need to act in a way that might bring other people in, and maybe some of that is letting go of the self judgment or perceived judgment of other people.
Lisa:Way less than you think they do. Most people are just walking around thinking about themselves most of the time. So assuming that other people are judging you is probably an overreach by a huge margin, because most of the time, nope, it's not even in their head. So interesting. Yeah. Well, thanks for unpacking with me today. I am fascinated at this whole topic, so you are so welcome. Thank you for bringing it for discussion, because this is really like that intersection of anthropology, psychology, social workplace interaction. It's all golden. I love it.
Jess:Is there anything you feel like you need to put the bow on?
Lisa:with this. No, I think you did it. I think you did the thing. Well, you did it, we did it.
Jess:We did the thing.
Lisa:Did it together. Happy weekend. Happy weekend and happy week to our listeners. It's ironic, I think, that we record on a Friday but we release on a Sunday, so really it's like opposite land. So to our listeners have a great week. It's going to be and we will have a great weekend and you have a great week.
Jess:Yes, it is a great week to have a great week. Oh my God, I love it. All right, all right, love you, sis, bye, bye.
Lisa:Bye Stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there.
Jess:Tune in every week you won't wanna miss. Dive deep into life With Jess and Lisa.
Lisa:Tune in every week you won't wanna miss. Dive deep into life. Well, I mean, one is the loneliest number. One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do. I never really understood those lyrics actually. One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do. I never really understood those lyrics actually. One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do? Do You'll ever do it Like? Why would you do being number one? I don't know. I never understood those.
Jess:I have never, up until this point in my life, known that those were the lyrics. Wow.
Lisa:Now you've got me questioning whether those are the lyrics.
Jess:My husband gives me such a hard time about that. But like I'm not the lyrics person, like I'm the music person, yeah, you're melody, not words. I'm melody, harmony. I will make up any word that sounds like it might fit. I'll mix verses together and every time he just looks at me like really, I'm pretty sure that is what it is, but it's lonely at the top.
Lisa:I have so many loneliness songs. Well, I mean that tells you what a pervasive issue this is. There's multiple, lots of songs about loneliness. So look to the arts If you're ever curious about society people. I mean that tells you what a pervasive issue this is. There's multiple, lots of songs about loneliness. Look to the arts if you're ever curious about society people.
Jess:Indeed, my alarm goes off and reminds me that one is not quite as lonely as children alone at the bus stop.
Lisa:Yeah, they need to start walking on their own.
Jess:That's what I'm saying you know the way I know. Hmm, all right, all right. Love you, sis, okay.
