Lots to Unpack There
We’re Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between. We’re navigating the “messy middle” of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Each week, we’ll share something real from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it’ll inspire and help you do the same—wherever you are.
Lots to Unpack There
Barrels and Buildings: The Debt that Wasn't
Jess and Lisa confront the psychology behind feeling indebted to employers who provide remote work accommodations, questioning whether workplace flexibility should come with the burden of overperformance.
• Judgment versus curiosity: how these mindsets are mutually exclusive and impact our perspectives
• The concept of remote work exemptions and the psychology of feeling indebted to employers who provide flexibility
• Examining non-negotiables in job searches and what they're designed to protect
• Time as the most precious resource and how commuting impacts personal and family life
• The difference between community and geographical proximity in career decisions
• Career values and priorities beyond salary and title
• The evolving nature of workplace loyalty and viewing employment as a renewable transaction
• The tension between short-term security versus long-term prosperity in job decisions
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Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.
Speaker 2:We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.
Speaker 3:We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Speaker 2:So each week, we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that, as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:this Friday, I'm good, it's rainy, and so that is always, like you know, kind of can bring you down a little bit.
Speaker 3:Not that I'm down, I just I had a very jam-packed couple of days and then I didn't have a jam-packed day today and I really wanted to just like dive in, dive into my not busyness, did you? Mostly? Yes, even though I feel pangs of guilt in doing so. You know, because of my productivity monster. I need to come up with a better name for the monster the monster that's like naggy and kind of mean and a little bit like judgmental and degrading.
Speaker 2:Oh, I have. Yeah, I have one of those. She's Judgy, jess. Well, yes, she judges many things in my life. Yes, I.
Speaker 3:I find judgy Jess very entertaining, though.
Speaker 2:Most people do. That's why I keep her around Judgy Jess has a really fun quality to her.
Speaker 3:I know it's like brings out everyone's really goofy cynical side. I know that's like brings out everyone's really goofy, cynical side.
Speaker 2:I think she's a little bit snarkier than I am, you know, in the most, but a lot of times I find she says the things that other people are thinking, uh-huh.
Speaker 3:And so sometimes it can be helpful. Because then, that's why everyone loves Judgy Jess, is because, like, their inner voice doesn't have to say the things, because Judgy Jess has already said them.
Speaker 2:Right, and sometimes productive conversations come from that. But you know, I think back to the positive intelligence stuff and if you're judging, you're not curious, and yet I think, Are they considered to be?
Speaker 3:I don't know opposites, I guess, like you can either be judgy or curious. You can't be both correct. Mutually exclusive was the word yes they.
Speaker 2:They are mutually exclusive, and so if you feel yourself in a judgy place, that's kind of the fastest way to get out of it is to engage your curiosity. I did.
Speaker 3:Did not know that as a fact, but I feel like I have used that recently.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Like in the last couple of days I have used that where I've wanted to like get down to that base level of being judgy and then the way I pulled myself out of it was by asking a question about somebody who that I was talking to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, so you're already but I didn't know that's what I was doing.
Speaker 3:I didn't realize that it was because they were mutually exclusive and all that kind of stuff. I just did it because I was like pull up, pull up. I need to find a way out of this of this, right it?
Speaker 2:yeah, judgy Jess is one of the parts of me that I think is most human, and so when she's not around, I think sometimes I don't know it's like I think for other people it can be validating to know that things do sometimes get under my skin and that they really, really bug me, like okay, you're literally describing being a human, but okay.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right, I know, but you know, most of the time when, when judgy Jess is not around, I'm kind of like, whatever like they'll do them, it's fine, as long as it's not actively harmful to other people. I'm kind of like I don't want to have an opinion about everything, but Judgey Jess has an opinion about everything and so that's a really good framework for what judging is.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people know what it is when they see it, but it's really hard to define, because judgment having, let's say the term good judgment that is by far and away a virtue. Everyone would agree having good judgment is a virtue, but having judgment is that a virtue, and so like I think that's, that's really what it is at its base level, and I've literally never thought about that before, but it is. It's a, it's rendering an opinion, it is about something or everything. Like you said, it's like I'm going to render an opinion either internally or externally, about everything, even if it's not your business, I guess, to do so.
Speaker 2:Right and it. I think the thing for me is that it feels it's it's exhausting, yeah, it's being in that, that constant rendering of an opinion. It's like, oh, I could have been spending that energy on something that I actually cared about, when I really don't want to care about that thing again, within the limit of if it's not actively harmful, yeah, and I don't know. I think sometimes that I feel the judgment before I realize that it's judgment. But judgment is inherently narrowing in focus because you're deciding that something is something.
Speaker 3:Right, which is why curiosity is the antithesis of it is because you're broadening your view. You're saying there's things about this I don't know, or about this person, or about this situation, or whatever it is. Because you're broadening your view, you're saying there's things about this I don't know, or about this person, or about this situation, or whatever it is. You're like, you're broadening the scope versus narrowing that scope down to. I have decided and I have rendered an opinion on this thing, right, and the truth, the absolute truth, is that we almost never actually know everything Right.
Speaker 3:Oh, never, I mean almost never. I'm trying to think of a scenario that we would know everything, unless it's something that only deals with you. But then you're also, if you're even saying that, you're saying you know everything about yourself and I don't know anyone who knows everything about themselves.
Speaker 2:Which is but the judgment would have us think that we did.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and so being curious about myself too. So when I feel the judgment, it's like, ooh, that made me feel a certain way. What is it about this thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's bristling up against my values, or it's like that's so hard to get to in that moment, though Like I can do that. After the fact, I don't know if I can do that real time. I think you've got to be a real like mental ninja to pull that off in real time.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I even say I don't want to be judgy Jess right now.
Speaker 3:Oh, just talk to her.
Speaker 2:I don't. It's like this constant seeking of. If there is even one thing that I can imagine that makes it make sense that it doesn't involve the other person being a crappy human, then I would rather believe that.
Speaker 3:I've never been a road ragey person, but this was my strategy for any kind of I don't know negativity in driving was just literally assuming every single person needed to do whatever crappy thing they were doing on the road, whether it be go slow or go fast, or make turns or not use signals or whatever I was like. There's a super legitimate reason for every single one of those people and I literally do it, you know, 20 times a day, Every time I drive. I have to probably pull that strategy out because, let's be honest, like every time you drive, you're probably going to run into somebody who's doing something they shouldn't be doing Right, and sometimes I'm that person.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Sometimes I am that person too, and then I want I should ask my husband to build like a little Arduino microcontroller thing that just flips up a sign that says I'm sorry. And I am one of those people.
Speaker 3:I should ask him for that. I know, I know there, especially certain times, I feel like I get from point A to point B and I get there and I'm like how did I do this alive? Because I know I've made so many mistakes along the way and it's like you know you're distracted, or, especially, I found that driving with kids is the most difficult thing to like really focus on what you're doing. You're literally driving a vehicle that weighs, I don't know, 2,000, 3,000 pounds, something like that, down a road at high speeds, and you have one to three in my case little distraction gremlins who are you know you're caring for, but at the same time they're the ones who are putting themselves in mortal peril by being little distraction, gremlins.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I don't usually have any. I either have a podcast on or I have silence on, because if the podcast is on then they're silent, and if silence is on then I can handle that level of conversation. Otherwise it's it's too much.
Speaker 3:I feel like we get into some of our deepest conversations on the way to school in the morning. It's like an eight minute drive, which is not far to go. On the way to school in the morning it's like an eight minute drive which is not far to go. But I feel like that is lately where we have started getting into more of our philosophical discussions on life and things like that, which is just such a funny time of day to do that. I feel like I'm priming them to be morning people a little bit, I think so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that definitely seems like a bedtime conversation in our house oh, really, I try to shut that noise down after about eight o'clock.
Speaker 2:I, I love, I obviously love my children. Nah, this, my middle has started saying can I tell you something about my day? And it makes me so happy. And also I'm like oh, you felt like you needed to ask permission. I always want to hear about your day. I just want to hear about your day when I'm not trying to do six other things so that I can pay attention.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, my, my son, my, my oldest, always asks that too. Can I tell you something? Hey, mom, can I tell you something? Is it? Have I ever said no to that question? Just tell me the thing.
Speaker 3:But it always is preempted with hey mom, can I tell you something Very fast, just like that. Yeah, I mean, our listeners probably don't know him, but that's a dead on him impression. Yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah, so, anyway. So rainy day, jam-packed week, lots going on, decompressing a little bit, watched a decent amount of TV, but then I was like, well, the productivity monster was asking me to do other things while watching TV, which is a totally reasonable request, honestly, because I mean, if you're just going to sit there, if you're just going to sit there, and there are very good occasions in which you should just sit there, but today wasn't really one of them and it definitely wasn't that for like four hours straight. So, doing things that I can do while watching the show I wanted to watch, did some laundry, did some working out, did a lot of really annoying the cat.
Speaker 1:Very important work.
Speaker 3:Really, and I explain it to him every single time your job in my home is to be there for me to annoy. So you are just doing your job at this moment and he does it very well to be fair, he does Gold stars. He's a great cat. He's a great cat, so anyway. So that was a bit about my day today and yeah, and just doing some soul searching slash job searching.
Speaker 3:And it is an interesting paradigm when those two things cross over each other. Yes, but I had a conversation with the job that I've been interviewing with for the last couple weeks. For anyone who might not know, I was laid off from my job in March, finished that job in April and have been moseying on trying to find things ever since and as it stands right now, we are in May right Second week of May something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the math checks.
Speaker 3:Okay, good, so, yeah, so having lots of conversations around that and around not just what I want, but what I expect and things like that, and that's what some one of the things I wanted to unpack today was there's lots and lots of discussion right now about work from home, in the office, or hybrid and, as it sits in 2025, many, many, many companies are sort of doing away with not but, like many, are just doing away with any remote work whatsoever. It's just like we were. We were doing the hybrid thing for a while, but now we're just not and you're just expected to have build this into your life again, and I've been almost fully remote since 2020. So for five years, with a slight stint in there of going into the office three days a week, which I now look at in the current environment as like wouldn't that be nice? Three days a week would be like perfect. So it's so. Much of this is about perspective and where things are and all that.
Speaker 3:But we I was talking to you know various people about this opportunity and so this job is.
Speaker 3:They're expecting the person to be in the office five days a week, but but there is a possibility and consideration that it could be built into some version of official unofficial, that I wouldn't need to go in all five days a week because I live quite far from the office, that that would be the expectation.
Speaker 3:And my initial reaction to that was I wouldn't want to be, I guess, maybe going back to judgment, but like I wouldn't want other people to know, Like that's something very public, almost right, Like people see whether or not you're in the office, and so for me, like this, I felt like it would put an expectation of me having to be amazing or something, this sort of double standard thing. Because then I feel like the expectation on me would be well, now you have to make it worth our while that you're not coming in five days a week. And my husband, who I got clearance from to say this on the podcast, was like why would you think that? That is? I'm with him, yeah. And he was like you'd never expect that if you got a higher, if you negotiated a higher salary or a bonus or rsu or something like that the visibility of I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't know, but like I felt this intense pressure that, like now, I have to live up to this arrangement and I have to eat every bit of what they're expecting, performance wise in order to like earn this dispensation of not as much in the office time.
Speaker 2:And what are you taking responsibility for when you do that, though?
Speaker 3:Um, I don't know Say that differently. I don't know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, so you said I would need to live up to this special dispensation and their expectations. But what are you taking responsibility for there?
Speaker 3:I am taking responsibility for this, I don't know for like being special, I guess, or like having to be special.
Speaker 2:I guess I kind of wonder if you're also taking responsibility for their decision to give you that dispensation. Yes, by making it yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think I would be. I think I would feel like I owed them that or something. Yeah, which is funny, because when you think about it in terms of salary or bonus, I'd be like, no, I'm going to get the highest bonus, highest salary, highest RSUs, whatever benefits you got laying around, I'm going to take it all and I'm not going to even blink about it. But for some reason, this felt particularly attached to me personally, like as an employee. It felt attached to me already, as if, like, they were going to be looking at me under some kind of microscope to make sure that it was worth their while to, like, go through the pain of having to get this exemption for me, or something like that it does not seem ethical to me that they would place a higher expectation on somebody just based on their willingness, and I don't think it would ever be anything like written down or official or anything like that.
Speaker 3:But I feel like that probably and again, maybe I'm projecting, but it does feel like that would be the expectation. I think part of this comes from the interview process where they said, if you wow us, maybe we can get you this exemption. And that was the expectation. Going into the interview process was like if you're as amazing as we want you to be, maybe we can get this thing for you that you really want and slash kind of need, because I can't go into the office five days a week. It's just not possible. So I think maybe that set me up a little bit for having this feeling of like having to dig myself out of debt.
Speaker 2:That debt was not a loan, though Wasn't it. That was a one-time grant. The payment of it is the wowing of them during the interview process. That just says basically, like this person is worth the extra paperwork, hmm. It seems to me to be kind of one and done. Hmm, but you're seeing it as more of an ongoing. It's like a student loan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but not just say my leadership and management, but everybody around me then who is seeing me have this special thing and if I'm not seen as amazing and special, they will be comparing these things against each other. Why would they give her the exemption Everyone else has to go in five days a week. She's not that special, she's not that amazing, I don't know. I kind of had this like on multiple fronts sort of running through my brain.
Speaker 2:And, wearing my manager hat, I would get some of these sorts of would you questions Okay I would. And there was always of questions Okay I would. And there was always the question in my mind of fairness, and at the time when I thought of fairness, it was everybody having the same access to the same benefits, okay, and my view of fairness really shifted into what is it that people need, and meeting them in their place of need and to to a degree, you know, I wouldn't want to give preferential treatment just willy nilly because I like the person it definitely gives you that like squeaky wheel gets the grease kind of like underpinning what you don't really want in a team dynamic.
Speaker 2:Right. But if somebody came to me and said I have a health condition that requires that I walk every hour, then we would just go through the accommodation process and make sure that that person could get up and walk every hour, Right. And if other people on the team were like, why does that person get to walk every hour? I would say because that person needs to walk every hour you know, without going into any sort of confidential details.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I guess the way I'm thinking of this conundrum is that your need is different. You would be driving three hours a day, right, and that changes the company's need. Because if they're expecting you to work additional time on top of that, like the commute is your time, and they want you to work the full hours anyway, then they run the risk of burning you out, right.
Speaker 3:And if they and they don't want that because turnover is really expensive, and so I don't really seem to care about that, as far as I can tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it seems like the decision of whether or not to meet you in that place of need is totally on them and maybe maybe it was just crappy of them to tell you that it was contingent upon your performance in the interviews.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think that was an amazing thing.
Speaker 3:The recruiter, in this case, is very transparent, which I have used to my advantage a couple of times because there's to be nothing that he's not willing to tell me but also very transparent on the other side of that, which is like maybe I didn't need to know that, like the degree to which I wow you is going to determine what kind of package I'm given, which I guess that makes sense it does.
Speaker 3:If you really really want somebody because you think they're amazing, maybe you will offer a higher salary or a bigger bonus or something like that. So maybe maybe it's not that crazy to tie those things together in that way, but I felt like it was something that I was always going to be carrying around with me in this job, that it was something that, as opposed to a bonus or a salary or something like that, it was something I was never going to really be able to get out from under. It was just going to be this scarlet letter kind of thing. I guess, like everyone has to go back, except for Lisa. She doesn't have to because she's so amazing. Apparently. I don't know why these people are so cynical in my view.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that way of thinking is like, not helpful. It's not going to be serving you or setting you up for success in this new position. But then the question is, what might be a helpful reframe and you mentioned the thinking of it as a consideration and total compensation Right. What does that do for you?
Speaker 3:That helps. Actually, when I think about it that way Like I negotiated myself from having to go into the office five days a week because I'm a good negotiator, not because I owe some sort of debt of gratitude to a company for being so generous Like that's not really how a company and employee relationship, especially nowadays. That's not really how a company and employee relationship, especially nowadays, works. It's not about generosity or anything else. It's literally exchange of goods and services and so like, when you think about it in that regard, like it's the same as going to a flower vendor and being like well, I'll pay you 50 cents for this flower instead of the dollar that's listed on it. Like there's like, if you both agree to it, then you both agree to it and that's what the flower is worth at that point.
Speaker 2:So that idea of something being worth only what somebody is willing to pay for it. Yeah, and your work being worth it with them. You, you agreeing to the exchange of goods and services, right, right, it's only worth it to you if you can do it from home, two days a week At least, or three days a week.
Speaker 3:Ideally three, but yes, yeah, I think that does help. That does help to reframe it in my mind of just like the only thing it has to do with is that offer of employment and if we can reach that appropriate negotiation where everyone feels good, yeah, and if that includes You're not coercing them.
Speaker 2:Right Right, You're not holding them over the I don't know, over the side of a building I went to like really violent Wow, that was extreme street, I know.
Speaker 3:I went to really violent places there but like I was thinking like hanging them over a barrel and you would like to the side of a building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, A barrel didn't seem big enough.
Speaker 3:No, Okay. Well, I feel like there's a lot of things in between barrels and buildings. Probably Name of podcast episode barrels and buildings?
Speaker 2:Yeah right, I like that, I like that. Yeah, I mean, you're not forcing them to, that's not your responsibility. I think is where I land Right, and telling yourself otherwise or allowing yourself to feel beholden. I don't want to say it doesn't make sense, because it does make sense.
Speaker 1:I understand.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I make some sense, I understand it. But also, is that the thing that's going to put you on the level of partnership that you want to be at in this new?
Speaker 3:role Right, and I think that's the bigger question to ask. You have to, I think, in these situations, zoom out a little bit. I think I got a little bit myopic Is that the word Mm-hmm? About this particular issue? Because in the job search today this is one of the biggest things. I feel like salary has gone a little bit to be a less important thing and this work from home status is now become like line item number one in people's minds. It, I think, might be number one or number two in my mind of importance. Yeah.
Speaker 2:When you think about the things kind of piggybacking on that, when you think of the things that are most important, what are they?
Speaker 3:Well, I have my list of non-negotiables. It's quite extensive and working from home is on there to the extent that I don't want to be commuting more than like X number of hours per week. That's the thing that I draw the line, Not that like I must have hybrid or I must have remote or I must have work remote. It's not quite as prescriptive as that, because I think that's kind of limiting, but it's like I don't want to spend, spend more than I think the number was like eight or something like that. Like eight hours a week in the car on the way to and from work, Because as it stands right now that's I mean in my last job that was eight more hours per week than I was doing.
Speaker 3:Like that that's a huge, huge jump. Even just that and I think a lot of people in the Maryland, DC, Virginia area would say eight hours a week is actually really low compared to what it can be. And with this job, if I was to go five days a week, it would be 20 hours, 20 of my life hours sucked away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are many components to that and it's.
Speaker 3:there's the time component of, but there's cost associated with it too, like significant cost vehicle wear and tear gas, parking in some cases, depending on where you are, and I don't know in this case if parking would be included or not. In my last job, when I had to go to DC, parking was $30 a day. Like that's what it costs to park there. So, yeah, so there are costs associated with it, and I would be remiss if I didn't. You know, talk about opportunity costs and things like that. That's what I was thinking too. There's tons of opportunity costs lost there.
Speaker 2:And the productivity cost? Yes, which is, I think, a different facet of opportunity, because I think, to some extent, maybe there are meetings that you could take on the road to recoup some of that time. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:It's not my favorite environment. I really like to connect with people and even over Zoom or whatever platform you're using, that is a challenge. It's not impossible, but it is more of a challenge than being in person. For me, that is who I am. I have found myself to be someone who really likes to exchange physical energy with people, and so you're already losing something on a virtual call, but when you're distracted and driving and are trying to get through traffic and you call, but when you're distracted and driving and have are trying to get through traffic and you're taking turns and you're like I don't know, like that, just I feel like that it would depend if it was something I could only listen to and I didn't have to chime in. But honestly, why am I in a meeting where I'm not participating? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Because you're in the car, and what else would you be doing? Exactly Because there's good information.
Speaker 3:I would probably rather listen to an audio book or a podcast or something. It seems like a better use of my time. So, anyway, it was just an interesting thing that came up that, like I had this initial reaction to this thing and you know the person who was witnessing that went like wait, what that's not, you know. It was just such a stark difference between the two of us and our reactions to this as a as a thing. So, anyway, I thought it would be worthwhile to unpack here.
Speaker 3:But I think it, I think I do have a good reframe for it now and I really hope that it wouldn't diminish my ability to connect with people that I worked with if I had a different schedule for working in the office than they did.
Speaker 3:And I think that's really the only consideration to really have in this. Is that, like, would that put a chip on people's shoulders about me? And because my job is so much about connection and is so much about facilitating good relationships with other stakeholders and partners, like it's worthwhile to consider. If that's going to diminish that ability to literally do my job because people feel some kind of way about it, then it's worth being like, let's take a step back, and I think that's really what the company is trying to protect is putting certain people on different pedestals or dynamics when it comes to this big hot button current issue. And they've hired a lot of people recently and so they've probably gone through this conversation with many, many people which is like no, we only do the five days a week, you have to be in the office, you have to be in person, you know that whole thing and then to have somebody waltz in and not be under those same regulations, I could see that creating an issue.
Speaker 2:I think there's an assumption here that that same accommodation was not made for all of the other people. That's true.
Speaker 3:I have had a couple of conversations that led me to believe there are a few people who are under a little bit of a different schedule and that they're looking to change that to make sure that everyone has the same expectations one is has the same expectations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, a business is able to set expectations in that way, yep, and employees are able to decide what is acceptable to them. You can give your opinion with your feet. Something I want to come back to that you said is that the non-negotiables and the list being really there are many of them.
Speaker 3:I mean I feel like there are many of them. I don't actually think that there's anything like crazy unreasonable in there, but when it comes, I think I'm still at the point of my career, which is crazy to say because I've been working almost 20 years as a professional, but like where having non-negotiables is even a thing. This is the first job search that I'm on where I'm like, where there even are non-negotiables is even a thing. This is the first job search that I'm on where I'm like, where there even are non-negotiables. I wrote a list previously, but it was like this is my ideal. That's the way that I framed it the last time, and so now having it as like no, this is what I'm unwilling to accept, is a different take on it Sort of the same idea but a different take, and so I think for me, just even having a list to begin with feels like I'm very large for my britches.
Speaker 2:What is it that your list is trying to protect?
Speaker 3:protect. Oh, my time, my standing in my industry and my ability to connect within my industry is comes up quite a few times in the list and my working conditions, I think, is the is the other thing, and as a professional who works on a computer, that does not mean physical safety most of the time. That means like things like respect and professionalism at a deeper level, something that I probably and I definitely was willing to put up with for a long time in various other jobs. That now and it's really hard to suss out in an interview process if that's going to be the case or not but like understanding what is the respect of time, of people's skills, of you know what they bring to the conversation Is there respect for that? Or is there a singular view? When everyone falls in and that's the way it's almost dictatorship-like, like and really try to get to that. I asked so many questions in this interview process to try to ascertain a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2:Even that word, respect, is so loaded. Yeah, because sometimes respect is conflated with deference. Yeah, and walking that line. Really, it seems like what you're asking is how will I know that I matter in this place?
Speaker 3:Yes, and really the non-negotiable is that I matter Right, that the things that I am bringing to the table and that I am the skills, the experience, the know-how, even the growth opportunities are the things that are going to matter to the people around me, above, below, to the sides, all over. And yeah, that's now become a non-negotiable because, you know, we live and we learn and we see things and we, you know, we put notes, either mental notes or physical notes, like I really don't want to work in a place that has this anymore because this thing has really hampered my ability to grow or adapt or do my job or whatever the case may be. So that is the majority of the list is making sure that I have a voice, it is my voice, I get to show up, I get to do good work and that it matters, and that seems like again, like that's a. That sounds like a very reasonable list to have you know, but that's one.
Speaker 3:It's really hard to determine in an interview process if that's going to be the case, and two like I think it's kind of hard to find in general At least it's been hard for me to find so far.
Speaker 2:It reminds me a little bit of the house hunting list that we put together when my husband and I were looking for a house. Yeah, or the trope of every homeowner on HGTV.
Speaker 3:Totally. I want a million dollar house and I want it for 200,000.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and so that's kind of what is. That's the context that's in my mind of on this, this hybrid work thing. We've talked about boundaries and nice-to-haves before and limits. Maybe when actually is the boundary on this? Where, if they come back to you and they say we'd love to hire you, we'll give you double your current salary, but we expect you to be in the office five days a week?
Speaker 3:I would say no, I would because, out of respect, honestly, for them and for me, I would hate it. I would hate what my life becomes. It's very similar to me to the travel, sports stuff. It's like there are certain things that I am willing to give up and there are certain things that I'm not in terms of time for myself, for my friends, for my family, and time is the only thing that really matters. It is the only thing you cannot buy. It is the only thing that is. It is truly the most precious resource.
Speaker 3:And to me, if I'm looking at like, okay, I can have a lot more material things, but I won't have time, screw that Like. That's an easy equation for me. I just I value my time so much and that's why work from home has really been a benefit to me is because there's just more of it. I just get more than the other, than the other people do, and I get it in a different way than the other people do. We all get 24 hours, but I, I am given a gift of time and that is truly the only thing that matters to me really, or I should say it's the number one thing that matters, and by time I mean all of those time for all of those categories, including myself, and I really like I put my kids truly at the tippy-tippy top of that list and if I'm commuting 20 hours a week, that 20 hours is coming out of my time with my kids. It just is, and I'm like, nope, not interested.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you on that. I remember when I was, when I went back to full-time employment, it was a really big adjustment to be there every day. It was 50 minutes there, sometimes hour, 10 minutes home, depending on traffic, and that was if I was going to the Maryland office. If I was going to the Maryland office, if I was going to the Virginia office, it was even longer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I also felt that you also have no control over it, like when you're in it. It could be anything. It could be four hours, right? Yeah, you have no control.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of family friction because we just we had to upend so many different things, yeah, to make it happen, and I and I wanted to continue giving at home and I couldn't give to the same extent and it really there was some, there was a reshuffling and a lot of it really made me think about my priorities. I mean, there were some difficult conversations around that and so I think it's really commendable that you have such a clear idea of your priorities going into this search so that you can protect the things that matter most. Yeah, I was going to ask if you, if you wanted, or if you had assigned a weight to each of those things, like maybe an interesting exercise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thinking about them. As you know some of it, there is a limit where if if somebody says, ok, but you're going to be commuting 20 hours a week, like hard pass, that's right, that's an instant. No, but if you're weighing multiple options and one has three days a week, nine hours, and another one has five days a week but it's 30 minutes from your house, so it's 10 hours, how much does?
Speaker 3:that weigh in the decision-making process. It definitely weighs. It's up there, and I'm I think you know, I think we've found this in other job hunts, people that we know you don't really know what your top priority is until you start having these conversations and then you realize like oh, I thought this was my number one, but it's actually not, because the thing that I can't stop going back to is this other thing, and I have definitely heard that from other people.
Speaker 2:And for you, this other thing is the work from home.
Speaker 3:I knew it was going to be important. Well, I also knew it was going to be important to go back to the office some amount of time. One of the non-negotiables was that I don't want to be fully remote. I want to be able to see people in person, whereas in my last job there was none of that. I couldn't see anybody in person. It was impossible. We were on different continents, most of us, and I want to be able to reach out and have those in-person connection points. So the non-negotiable is that there is some time in the office, but the other non-negotiable is but not too much.
Speaker 2:But not too much, right. Well, that, I think, comes down. It's not the work from home, then it really is the time commute it is, it's 100% the time, because, and where I live just does not lend itself.
Speaker 3:There's nothing really around us.
Speaker 2:But I'm thinking if you got a job in Frederick which is 30, I don't know, 30 minutes away from you, 35 minutes Yep, and you have an hour commute four times a week, that would be okay Totally. You would welcome the extra time in the office. Yes, if, but it is about proximity.
Speaker 3:Yes, it is, and proximity is something that is quite scarce up here. Yeah, so, and actually this kind of led to a bigger question of like. Last night I was sort of mulling over it in my mind. I'm like should we really live here? Should we really live here from a work standpoint? We are not in a good locale for my job or even my husband's job, like he has. He did at one point have about a 30 minute commute and now, with everybody going back to work in the DC area, it's now like much closer to an hour, maybe even a little bit more. I know people that commute to what I would consider to be a very reasonable place that now takes them like an hour and 15 minutes because of the traffic increase in all of the people going back to work.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. And I think about the systemic effects of greater wear and tear on roads and more construction, which is going to add more delays, and so it's really it's not. It's not great, it's not great, but I went there too. I was thinking about like, is that the best place for you to live, then if? And then I thought that that was too extreme, and then you went there.
Speaker 3:No, I, of course. Yeah, I definitely went there in my mind. I was like what if I lit? What if we lived in Northern Virginia and I had an unlimited number of jobs at my disposal? Essentially Okay not actually unlimited, but pretty close I could be in competition for the best jobs ever. Of course, cost of living is higher. Houses are smaller, schools are okay, so that's probably a wash. Schools are great, iouses are smaller, schools are okay.
Speaker 2:So that's, you know that's probably a wash Schools are great. I love Northern Virginia.
Speaker 3:Yeah, except for the traffic.
Speaker 2:Not so recently, not so distantly. That was a question for us because my husband's office is in Chantilly, virginia, right, is in Chantilly, virginia, right, and he loves going into the office, except for the commute, yeah, and so that was a big thing. I was like, look, I don't care, I can work from anywhere. That's true, but the hassle, the inertia of finding anything remotely close to what we have that would give me a home office, right, all of the effort put into networking in Maryland, yeah, it's a lot, and for you, I think the equivalent is the neighborhood and the close you have a tribe.
Speaker 3:Yes, we have an absolute community.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're like truly a true community, not like, oh, we live in a community where we are constantly relying on each other, almost like a family, like an extended family sort of would.
Speaker 3:It's really important to me not really having much family here, and so that's like a huge benefit to me. For example, tonight I am not able to go to my daughter's dress rehearsal, ballet recital, but my neighbor is taking her daughter, so she's taking my daughter along and it's like that is just something I get to. That's just a massive, massive benefit that can't really be quantified, right, it's just like, oh, well, then you just take my daughter and I know that she's safe and I know that she'll get there and I know that she'll have fun and I know that she's safe and I know that she'll get there and I know that she'll have fun and I know that she won't miss me, like all of these things that I'm like, oh, that's just, that's something honestly like I should actually take a moment of gratitude about, because, like I just was able to just make that happen in one in one text message. I can't go, you can take her with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, I, yeah, I had one of my best friends sent me a plant. It was beautiful. It arrived the day we left for spring break. Oh no, and I was like I am not totally sure who I can call. I love my neighborhood, my neighbors are great, we're friendly, but we're not like that. Yeah Yet, maybe we could be, but but I think that is maybe something to unpack a different time, which is like asking for help and leaning on other people. And that community doesn't happen accidentally. You have to give into it, you have to actively build it, and I have not actively built that community for myself in my immediate neighborhood.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me it was necessity. I knew I was going to need people and luckily people need as much from me as I need from them. So it feels equitable, because if it was one-sided I would feel really icky about it. But we're all constantly relying on each other. I feel like there's literally not a week that goes by that I'm not watching someone else's kid for some amount of time, even if it's passive watching like oh, they're outside, it's all good. So that is really important. And not to say that there aren't places all over the country that you could find that Of course there are. But, like you said, there's an inertia factor of like, but we already have it here. So it's a matter of weighing these pros and cons.
Speaker 3:Like I am not close to a lot of stuff that would advance my career.
Speaker 3:That's just facts.
Speaker 3:So, like I have to wrestle with that concept of like, if I left and I went to some place that was centrally located, like Herndon or Vienna or something like that down in Virginia, yeah, those things would be available to me.
Speaker 3:But or and depending on how you look at it and you know, my house would be half the size and I probably wouldn't have a yard and you know my community would just be, it would be different. So, but it is something I definitely thought of last night, because I was thinking of so, but but it is something I definitely thought of last night Cause I was thinking of like when, when I grew up, I was, I thought of people as like and maybe this did happen more of like you get a job and you move somewhere and and I just like I thought of this concept of like the Gen Xers in particular, but maybe the late boomers too. I'm like, well, you got a new job, so then you and your family picked up and you went to that new job, wherever that was across the country and I have found in my life, I'm like, oh, that's just not feasible, that's just not something you do, right.
Speaker 2:How do you even do that? I think it has become kind of prohibitively expensive but, also largely obviated because we have the means to have remote work and so it's only this, not arbitrary. I understand the some level of the greater system components of the return to office movement.
Speaker 3:It's not entirely BS.
Speaker 2:It is some BS, but it is not entirely BS.
Speaker 2:I think there are probably other ways that we could explore to revitalize neighborhoods and also provide services and all of that stuff. But that is what's driving this. It's not necessity. Right In, like the actual, you have to be physically present to do the work. Right, because we can do the work remotely most of the time now. Right, it's the energy exchange, it's the culture building, it's the. It's the energy exchange, it's the culture building, it's the. I think I don't know if this is judgy, jess, or just maybe a little cynicism that the control factor, like. I do think there's an element of the power dynamic in a corporation.
Speaker 3:When you tell people you can do your job from anywhere, I think the understanding is it gives a silent signal that the employees do have a decent amount of power over their career, over their employment, over their work life.
Speaker 2:And somehow that became bad, but maybe it's just in the context of these other things bad, but maybe it's just in the context of these other things. I think some people need to be in the office to be around other people, and other people can be themselves more when they're safe in their home, when they don't have to put on a mask every day to go fit into an office. And I know we didn't start this conversation to go to this like philosophical kind of DEIB space, but it is really hard when you think about the population as a whole and the different needs that people have.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To meet them in their place of need.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially with a one size fits all? What?
Speaker 3:if you're amazing at your job, but the idea of standing at a water cooler or at a bathroom sink in your office building and having to talk to people in that context makes you break out in hives. You're amazing at your job. You can sit at your desk and do your job, but when you work in an office, that's only part of it, right, because you're truly, truly in, you know, communal space with other people and there's other aspects to that that. Like I said, I'm sure there's tons of nuance, there's a million different derivations of this that you could go through, and some people that's the crap they love. They love the water cooler in the bathroom, chat and the kitchen, banter and whatever, whatever puttingchotchkes on their desk and showing themselves in that way. But those people feel comfortable in that space and I think you made a good point that there's a lot of people that don't as well.
Speaker 3:And you're sort of limiting that by saying, by putting this, and I think maybe that's maybe what it is it's this one size fits all approach and that does tie back into what we were talking about is this one size fits all? And it's like, I think, what remote work really showed us as a world, as a society is. It really doesn't have to be one size fits all. Having options is a good thing. Having options makes people happy. Having options gives people flexibility and like, I think from the corporate sense those things are seen as like well, do we really want them to have those things? Do we really want them to have them and or know that they have them, or what?
Speaker 2:do we want Having forbid? People should be enabled to think or feel or have opinions about their the hours between eight and five. Autonomy is one of our core neuroscientific need.
Speaker 3:It's a core need and for some people more than others as well, and I think those people do really really really well in remote work, those people who really crave autonomy and really crave that aspect and that's definitely not everybody, but it is some people.
Speaker 3:And I remember when I was in college, online courses were really not quite mainstream yet. They were very, very few and far between for my university that I went to, and I remember somebody telling me like well, before you sign up for that online class, make sure you are the type of person that can do an online class. And I remember this conversation very clearly and I was like what kind of person is that? And they were like you have to do the work yourself. And I was like done, no problem. And online courses were, of course, like great for me because I was so self motivated in that way, I loved autonomy, I loved being able to be self paced and all of that kind of stuff and that's, you know, really carried over to the remote work that I have done over the last few years.
Speaker 2:It was hard at first, I will admit, yeah, but I think there's a distinction to make here between autonomy and independence. Okay, where independence? When you described that, I like that both, but go ahead Right, but I think they're different needs. I think independence is very much I am by myself and autonomy is I can choose and being able to choose whatever for yourself. I think there are a lot of people who experience independence in that they work remotely but do not have much autonomy over how they spend their day. An office who don't have independence and have a lesser degree of autonomy, but who can have a lot of autonomy in how they spend their day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I still like both of those things, and I like them more now than I think I did before. Now that I have been reliant on those aspects of my personality, I've only strengthened them, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you're saying that there just aren't jobs for me to move up the corporate ladder in proximity to where I am, what does that mean for you?
Speaker 3:I don't know, and these are some of the questions I've really been asking myself, because I have not had a clear vision of who I am in the corporate space. Or rather, I have been very clear about what I haven't wanted and I always leave room that that does not mean that I will not want it at some point. But I look at the people who are above me and I say, do I want what they have? And I mean everything. I mean the money, I mean the status, I mean the control. I mean the status, I mean the control, I mean the headaches, everything, yeah.
Speaker 2:You have to take the whole package.
Speaker 3:You can't just take pieces of it. And every single time my answer is definitely not, definitely not what I want. But that does leave a pretty big runway of like well then, what do you want? Because if that's the trajectory you're on, but you don't want it, then you're on a trebuchet that's about to slingshot you into a place you don't want to be. I say that like it's like easy to move up the corporate ladder which it isn't but like let's just say, for the sake of it, that if you're on that trajectory, that you will eventually get there.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it goes back to the things that you're protecting and and what is going to facilitate those things. What there's a a a terminal values and instrumental values framework. Oh my God. So the terminal values are the things that when you look back on your life, they're kind of I think of them as deathbed wishes or regrets. Oh okay. So the things you would say I wish I had prioritized that more. And like nobody is saying I wish I had stayed that extra hour on Wednesday, you know nobody is saying I wish I had stayed that extra hour on Wednesday.
Speaker 3:You know, nobody is saying that, Definitely not, or even on a much bigger scale. Like no one's like golly. I wish I would have worked more. My life would have been so much better if I just would have put in way more hours than I did.
Speaker 2:I think we have talked about it on the pod before, but the relationships we have are by far the most important aspect of our end of life fulfillment. And then the instrumental values are kind of more like core values. What are the things that are going to help you prioritize what you want to prioritize? And so that is in my head right now when I think about this and the money. I haven't heard you say anything about the money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's never been a like for me. The dream is where I am and what I'm doing. That's the vision that I have, and who you're doing it with.
Speaker 1:I imagine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's never going home to a Scrooge McDuck style swimming pool full of gold. Like that has never been on the top of my list, so it just doesn't. It doesn't really make, it doesn't really crack the top 10. For me, it's like I want I I love travel, I love going on vacation, so I want a job where I can do that yeah that's kind of that's.
Speaker 2:That's my baseline yeah, yeah, I I'm. I'll be curious to hear if thinking about it in that way, because it does really open up fields and applicable skills. If that end purpose of I want to live the bigger life, yeah, and what's going to get me there?
Speaker 3:I really really do. I really believe in that, and that is what motivates me Truly. I also really want to do a good job and I really want people to see that I do a good job like that is. That is definitely in the in the mix.
Speaker 2:And the work that you do matters.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I see that I see the compensation of the work that you do matters yeah, but I see that compensation of the work that I do mattering in a lot of different ways, and the money I'm paid for it is only one of the many, many, many ways that I see that value coming back to me for the work that I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, hopefully, wherever I go also sees it that way Hopefully, yeah, that's the dream, that is the dream, that is 100% the dream, hopefully, wherever I go also sees it that way, hopefully.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the dream, that is 100% the dream, and I just appreciate all your positive energy and getting me to that place, and I feel like I'm playing chicken with my career right now, a little bit Like who's going to blink first. Am I going to take the job? That's the first thing that's offered to me, because I'm scared that if I don't, you know? Am I going to take the job? That's the first thing that's offered to me, because I'm scared that if I don't, you know that I'll not have anything. Or do I stay the course and stick it out and make sure that the thing that I get is the right thing? And there's this like eternal playing. It's a tension happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a tension there, for sure. Yeah, between, I think, maybe security short term, maybe it's short term versus long term. Yeah, short term security versus long term prosperity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the thing that you know that I kind of got to last night was like one thing that this process has taught me is that it is not loyalty is not really in the mix anymore in the corporate space. It's really not. So if I accept a job and I find something else, that is what it is at this point, like your company is not going to stick up for you and you don't need to stick up for it in so much like, of course, in your job, do your job, do it well, protect the.
Speaker 3:Thing do all of that. I'm not talking about that, but, like in terms of loyalty to working for the company or their loyalty for you working there, it doesn't really exist anymore. It's a business transaction. It's a business transaction and it's one that you renew every two weeks, so it's like there's not anything there. So I have to remember, too, that I'm not like I'm not getting married to another company.
Speaker 1:I am.
Speaker 3:There is no contract in that regard. I am agreeing to say like yes, that is, it's more like. It's more like um, your decision to like not see other people for a while, or something like that, like we've decided to be exclusive. It not is not married. You just, you just made you. Okay, let's make an agreement.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're going to see where this goes. So, in closing us, I, I want to know so many things. I love learning things about you, but I'm I'm wondering, still going back to the initial thing you wanted to unpack, which was this indebtedness to the company. Yes, how is that feeling post-unpacking? It feels better. What were the things about that that made the shift?
Speaker 3:for you. It feels better. I feel much more of like, aligned I think, just in talking it through, much more aligned, that it is part of a compensation, not a social agreement of type, but that there is that social agreement component on the on the underside of it, which is like wanting to ensure that my co workers, my peers, my leadership, don't have a chip on their shoulder when they're interacting with me because of it. And I think, to your point, that's a little bit the job of the business, it's not really a job of mine, that's the job of the culture of the business to ensure that people are not interacting with people, other others in that way. Yeah, so I think I can, I think I can pretty squarely let this one go, okay, ooh, yeah, I'm so glad I'm so glad we're there.
Speaker 2:Took us around the bend a couple times. Great unpacking with you today. Likewise, happy Friday, happy weekend. I'm so glad that I get to end my week with our recording. It just makes me so happy.
Speaker 3:Me too. Now I have to go get a febrile toddler. Good luck, my friend. Thank you, I love you so much. Now I have to go get a febrile toddler. Good luck my friend thank you, I love you so much bye.
Speaker 1:Tune in every week. You won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa. Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa with Jess and Lisa.
