Boundaries and Confidence and Goodbyes, Oh my!

Jess and Lisa explore the emotional complexity of ending coaching relationships and how setting firm boundaries enables us to become the people we want to be in both personal and professional contexts.

• Jess shares the bittersweet experience of a coaching client ending their relationship after achieving their goals
• Coaching creates intimate spaces where clients can share vulnerable thoughts, making the conclusion of these relationships emotional
• Boundaries are immutable lines we draw, while everything "to the left" of the boundary remains negotiable
• Effective boundaries allow us to protect our time and prioritize what truly matters
• Drawing boundaries around family time creates safety and enables intentional parenting
• Time-blocking specific commitments (like limiting evening events to twice a month) helps maintain balance
• Confidence, like grief, isn't linear but follows ups and downs that can feel more painful after experiencing success
• Zooming out during difficult moments helps provide perspective on how far we've come
• Self-care through keeping promises to ourselves builds resilience during confidence dips

Chapters

• 0:00 Coaching Relationships and Client Farewells
• 9:57 The Beautiful Vulnerability of Coaching
• 15:36 Setting Boundaries vs Making Offers
• 26:17 Time Boundaries and Family Commitments
• 40:33 The Non-Linear Nature of Confidence
• 49:33 Finding Balance and Zooming Out

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, it's Jess and Lisa. We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.

Speaker 2: 0:21

We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.

Speaker 1: 0:30

We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.

Speaker 2: 0:39

So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. Right before coming on to our call, I learned that one of my clients has is no longer going to be my client because they got what they needed from our coaching arrangement and they left me just wonderful, kind feedback. That that fills me with all sorts of of gratitude, and also I'm processing this multitude of emotions that come with that, where it feels very much like a mixed bag.

Speaker 2: 1:19

What makes it so bittersweet is like yeah he is gone and I didn't know that the last time I saw him was going to be the last time I saw him.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Wow, he really did Like you had a, you had a connection, clearly, if you're, if you're thinking of it from in that context.

Speaker 2: 1:37

So one of the things that I am thinking about is how much coaching is a form of love, because we get these clients who are saying things out loud, for maybe the first time ever that that thing has ever been said and there's so much trust in that space and that the validation it's being seen, it's being able to see somebody and give them the gift of seeing themselves and like. It's like by accepting them in this capacity, I'm enabling them to accept themselves and that's just such a beautiful thing. And so, yeah, I don't know, it's like. I wish him all the best. You know he's great, it's, but it's it's like man. I kind of wish we'd been able to tie that up with a bow a little bit.

Speaker 1: 2:36

Yeah, well, obviously he felt like he had that bow you maybe didn't, because you weren't in his head enough to know that, like, once he got what he needed from you, he was, he was good, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 2:52

I feel like there's so many metaphors floating around in my head right now and one of them is like you have this great big mason jar and you get to catch safely all of these little fireflies that fly out of people that they didn't even know were there to begin with, and you get to like, trap them in this mason jar for them and show them to them.

Speaker 1: 3:06

And then I also, you know, there's just like such a, there is such a like a beautiful little, like you're protecting them and you're you're, you're keeping them safe, and I don't know. There is something really sweet and touching about that that I don't think people really have in their head when it comes to coaching, especially since, like you said, most people come to coaching thinking you're going to, they're going to ask you a question about their career and you're going to say, well, here's what you should do next. Like that is the opposite of a safety and revealing conversation. It is you telling them what they're supposed to think or do or feel or anything like that, and that's just literally the opposite of it. So there's lots of there's lots of little like metaphorical cute things running around my head you're thinking of yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:55

Yeah, and I mean I do. I feel so great that I was able to help him see that in himself and again, that's that is a gift to me too, to be able to share in his success. I just I don't know. I just talked to a client yesterday and he had a bad experience with a coach before and it was because that coach came into it and he was an older former executive who came in and said this is how you should lead with authenticity. And he's like but if I'm doing it your way, is that authentic to me? I don't think it is. That's not. You can't say that that's your value and then tell me that authenticity has to be exactly the same for every person. It doesn't work like that.

Speaker 1: 4:43

So, yeah, I feel like, too. There's like a weird parallel between something that I talked about ages ago, when my daughter got her cast off, which was I still wanted, I was still in the mode of helping and she was in the mode of I'm good. Now I've got right now, and there was a letting go on my part. That is, it is not exactly the same, obviously, but like there's a letting go on my part. That is, it is not exactly the same, obviously, but like there's a letting go on your part too, where you're like, but I could keep helping you, I, we could continue doing this and I could, I could, we could continue you revealing these things to me and me catching them and showing them to you, and we discovering, you know what all of that could mean.

Speaker 2: 5:21

And instead he goes no, no, no, I'm good could mean, and instead he goes no, no, no, I'm good I got this. And I kind of knew after our first session he had this amazing aha that just totally shifted the way he had been thinking.

Speaker 1: 5:34

I remember you telling me about this one.

Speaker 2: 5:36

Yeah, it was so cool and I was like, yes, this is awesome. And then the next session we had, he said he had gotten a job interview and he was really far into that process and it was going to be able to help him do this. And he was. He has plans. So you know, in a sense, yeah, he had everything the signs were there.

Speaker 2: 5:54

The signs were there. I was hoping that I would have an update. I think what you said about your daughter is exactly true, that and it's so applicable in parenting that we are always doing something for the first time and something for the last time, and there are so many last times that we're just not going to catch because the needs have changed, because we haven't given it sort of that gravity. But I guess where this is leaving me is, with a deeper appreciation that any time, any day, any session could be the last one. I think in my private practice I have a little bit more foresight into that that we're signing up for 12 sessions we can talk about, we can arc the relationship over 12 sessions, whereas through this platform it's not that easy because it's like could discontinue at any time. There is no structure, so you just have to make the most out of every time.

Speaker 1: 7:01

Which absolutely is backwardly applicable once again to parenting and all of the things that we, you know, we, I think, living in that mindful space and that grateful space constantly allows you to be okay when you realize when the last time was the last time. Right, because you don't get foreknowledge of it. I am am so aware of that in my, especially with my oldest, because obviously things already have been the last time and I didn't even recognize that they were the last time because you know, I have two more.

Speaker 2: 7:40

So Right, yeah, and I would say with my youngest I get to savor it so much more. Yeah, because I know that the last time is coming and even just thinking about in the morning he loves to come wake up, mama, and I will wait in my bed for him to come wake me up. Yeah, I mean, sometimes he legitimately wakes me up, but because I know that he's coming and I know he'll wrap his tiny little, yeah, that he will bring some sort of book for me to read to him as we snuggle in bed and it's.

Speaker 2: 8:25

I know that this time is so finite, yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Yeah, but it's a good parallel to remember that, like these clients that you have, you know who do get something out of this relationship with you, and you both enter it knowing that it's fleeting. You know that's like that's baked into the process. But you know, when you do have a connection with somebody and they are able to make the most out of that relationship, it's even better, I think, in some ways, when it's cut short, because then it's like that's what you needed and you got it and now you can go and I release you back into the world and should you need it again, I'll be here Right?

Speaker 2: 9:09

Yeah, you're totally right. It's funny thinking about the idea of non-attachment as a coach.

Speaker 1: 9:18

Not unattachment.

Speaker 2: 9:20

Not unattachment, non-attachment and how we say things and maybe they resonate or maybe they don't, and we just kind of have to put it out there and if it lands, then it lands, and if it doesn't, then it wasn't the right thing. And I think this situation calls for a different kind of non-attachment, because this person was never mine. They were never mine, they were just somebody that I was lucky enough to walk alongside for a little while, yeah. So yeah, lots of mixed feelings, I know we kind of jumped right in.

Speaker 1: 9:57

We did.

Speaker 2: 9:58

To those things.

Speaker 1: 10:00

That was a non-intro.

Speaker 2: 10:02

That was a non-intro, Non-attachment non-intro Right right.

Speaker 1: 10:05

Just launched directly into the meat and the heart. But I mean, I think it's good that when you have these big things that come up as we're recording, that you do bring them up and that this is a place where you can talk through them for the very first time, as this is happening. So I think that's great. I'm glad I'm here.

Speaker 2: 10:25

I'm glad you're here too. How are you doing on this Friday?

Speaker 1: 10:29

I am. I am doing really well. I have a big event that I'm hosting this weekend coming up, and so there's lots of busyness associated with that. And, yeah, it's just been a. It's been a very busy and and not bad busy, not not good busy, just there's been a lot happening and I'm ending the work week feeling very productive and like things were done, and I'm entering into the weekend knowing that there's lots more things to still be done. So, yeah, so that's the space that I'm sort of coming in today, but in a in a all, in a good way, all in a positive way. No, there's no real negativity there. I just got off the phone with a company that is interested in me at a very, at a very speculative there's no job role.

Speaker 1: 11:25

There's no, there's no statement of work. It would be a nebulous agreement that we would enter into, and I am. I am finding that I am somebody who likes definition right and if only to make sure that expectations are understood right, I don't necessarily mind a gray space In fact, I love a nice gray space where not everything has to be clearly defined one way or the other. But when it comes to my work, I hate disappointing people. I do not want to disappoint anybody ever, and so I want to make sure that whatever I do enter into next meets my expectations, because I do have I do have things that I am going to need to make sure that I feel like I'm going into a better spot, but I also just don't ever want to not exceed expectations or at least meet them. So so, yeah, so that was an interesting call right before here.

Speaker 2: 12:29

So we both had very different things happen. What do you think you're going to do about that nebulous situation?

Speaker 1: 12:36

I think I'm going to define it. I think I'm going to define it and go back to them and say this is what I'm thinking. Does this seem like it somewhat aligns to what was in your head? And if it does, great. And if it doesn't, no harm done, fine, not a problem.

Speaker 2: 12:52

Oh my gosh. Yeah, that is reminding me of a different conversation I've had with a friend, which also relates to what I want to unpack today.

Speaker 1: 13:00

Okay, great, can we? Is this the pre-segway to the unpacking or is this the actual segue into the unpacking?

Speaker 2: 13:07

I think this is the actual segue into the unpacking Okay, great. Is that okay, or do you still Segway away? No, go for it. So my friend and I were talking about this idea of exactly what you just said, where she knows exactly what she wants and what is for her and what is not for her, and I was like, damn, that is so sexy, like not in a sexual sort of way, but in a like that is empowering.

Speaker 2: 13:34

And it is so cool to just to see somebody know what they want and I think you and I have talked about it a little bit too where you've been able to shut down conversations because you're like look. I already know I'm not going to be doing that, and I think that is amazing, and what I wanted to unpack today was around boundaries and how that is, in its essence, a boundary.

Speaker 2: 14:00

You're saying what you will do or what is acceptable to you, and you are deciding what is not acceptable to you, and if those things don't align, then you're okay walking away because it's not going to be what you want it to be. And I had a client this week who was talking about these boundaries that she's experiencing. She's wearing kind of two different hats, and one of her hats is her dream and the other hat is someone else's dream that she's working on.

Speaker 2: 14:26

And I think many of us can relate to this where we have a side hustle that we're looking to monetize, or we have the thing we do for fun, and then we have our work job. The work job is the somebody else's dream, and so what she's experiencing is that her dreams she's just not having bandwidth for because she's prioritizing someone else's dreams, of course, of course, as you do, and again, that felt so relatable to me, because not having time, energy, space for the things that we want to do, because we're doing these things that we feel like we have to do, Right.

Speaker 2: 15:02

And so, kind of the heart of what I think I want to explore is when is a boundary firm, when is a boundary kind of porous, and how do you decide what kind of boundary you need? Because when she was talking about this issue and I said, well, what do you need to be able to prioritize your dreams? And she said I need to time block. I need to do that first thing in the morning and not do this other thing first thing in the morning. I was like, okay, cool, so what is your next step? What do you want to do here? She said, well, I need to negotiate to have mornings back to myself.

Speaker 2: 15:42

And I said is it a negotiation? And she said, oh, it is not a negotiation. And that was the first time for her, at least in this context, that she saw my boundaries are not negotiable.

Speaker 1: 15:55

Ah well, and that was my initial reaction. When you said, is a boundary firm or is a boundary porous? I thought, well, if a boundary is porous, then it's not a boundary. Boundary porous, I thought, well, if a boundary is porous, then it's not a boundary, it's an offer. Sure, it's an opening bid, it's a discussion. There's lots of other words that you could use to describe something like that, but a boundary isn't one of them. To me, that is as immovable and immutable as the borders of a country, for example. That's a boundary and that is, you know, determined more or less by all of the parties involved to be a hard line, more or less Present world economics.

Speaker 2: 16:35

It's a little. It's a little on the nose leaves.

Speaker 1: 16:37

Yeah, Sorry about that yeah, first thing that came to mind, right.

Speaker 2: 16:40

But. But I think, even with our kids in all of the roles you know, I'll set a boundary of what I'll do. And sometimes it feels like an ultimatum or it feels like a punishment and where I am really just stating out loud I'm not going to do that. But sometimes there is wiggle room where it's like I am not going to do that. But sometimes there is wiggle room where it's like I am not going to do that. That is true, but would I do something else? That's maybe not quite that thing. So I think about my kids who.

Speaker 1: 17:15

But you don't put that out there. You don't say this is not firm, this is open for negotiation. You just say I'm not going to let you do that thing. And that's true, you aren't going to let them do that thing. But it doesn't have to necessarily be where the conversation ends, because if they come back to you in a very nice, pleasant way and say, how about? You're probably pretty willing to listen to them and find a new line to draw Correct In between yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:47

Is that an example of a boundary that is porous? That's maybe a little bit more negotiable. I say to my oldest I'm not going to pick you up by your feet to carry you to the bathroom. I would like to see you try, I know, but I truly can't. I mean, she's too tall now. It's like physics is not physicking that way. But if she says, but will you carry me like a little baby, I might still carry her like a little baby, because that could be the last time that I get to carry her like a little baby.

Speaker 1: 18:20

Way to bring that back around. Yeah, call back Way to bring that back around.

Speaker 2: 18:23

Yeah, call back. So how do we define when a boundary is a boundary or whether it's a starting bit? That's what I want to know.

Speaker 1: 18:31

To me, the boundary is the boundary. If it's a boundary, then it is a firm boundary. However, everything left of that boundary is still in play as long as the boundary remains clear. Hmm, boundary is still in play as long as the boundary remains clear. And so the decisiveness, the sexiness of saying this is this it doesn't change whether there's negotiation to the left of that. That is still open. It's still. To me, it's open space, but the hard line is still the hard line. So the porousness is not in the boundary, the porousness is in where do we mutually agree left of this line that I've drawn is the appropriate place for this to be. The line has been drawn that I cannot and will not carry you by your feet, but everything left of that is still negotiable. So if you nicely and sweetly make me another bid, I might accept it. That's the negotiation piece.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Yeah, I think I'm identifying maybe a little bit of black and white thinking here, because to the left of feels gray and strategic in an interpersonal way that I don't feel comfortable with. Well, here let's back it up. What are?

Speaker 1: 19:48

boundaries for.

Speaker 2: 19:49

Me or the person who's making them?

Speaker 1: 19:51

But specifically like what do they do, what do they complete, what action do they preserve?

Speaker 2: 19:56

I think they level set expectations about what a person will or will not be doing what a person will or will not be doing.

Speaker 1: 20:05

Sure, yeah, they provide to me. I see them as and maybe this speaks to who or what I am but safety, that to me is like a safety thing of like, I feel comfortable at this point and over, not beyond this point. Or they are a protection mechanism of some degree that say, like my time in the morning is precious, I protect it from 8 am to 9.30 am. That is the time that I will then negotiate everything else that needs to be done during the day and prioritize that separately. It's a protection mechanism when you say I will not let you jump on the couch six-year-old, that's a protection mechanism for them. It's a safety piece that sits there for their benefit, although they don't see it that way. So that's why I see the line as the line, because that's the point at which I will accept the risk of this thing.

Speaker 2: 21:06

Mm-hmm, I think, yes, I agree with everything you just said. But if somebody were to tell me I don't know, I can't even think of a great example here, but I'll use our relationship. If you said I can't prioritize that right now, I don't think I would go back and say, but can you prioritize these other things? Like to me that even asking that question feels like I am violating that boundary somehow, because I don't know what, what is to the left, like I don't know what, what decision was being made and where that was determined.

Speaker 1: 21:41

But I think that's a good point from people is to say it's to not necessarily hear a boundary and say and translate that in your mind as back all the way off, because that's not what the boundary says. The boundary says I need to protect this thing at this point, and I think that should be a signal to us to say that line cannot be crossed. It does not mean that that anything up and to that point is off the table as well, because then the boundary would have been way, way, way further left.

Speaker 2: 22:09

Right. I think this gets into how we even define boundaries or where to draw the line, and maybe because I think I tend to draw the line more to the left.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Mm, hmm, mm, hmm. Then you give yourself more of that space than you necessarily need.

Speaker 2: 22:27

I might be confusing my left and right here.

Speaker 1: 22:30

Well, also, I just made this up arbitrarily, it's not like I got it out of some sociology textbook Right.

Speaker 2: 22:37

So I think, if I am looking at this boundary as the space between self and others, maybe is how I'm thinking about it. I want to be useful and helpful to others and I think sometimes my boundary might be closer to the prioritizing others over prioritizing myself. And so that if they asked me to prioritize them more, I would be like I would have a reaction to that because I have already given everything that I can give to that.

Speaker 1: 23:11

I see. So you actually draw it more to the right than you really want it to be. What you want it to be is more equitable.

Speaker 2: 23:19

I think that I've already woven into the boundary as it really is, like a comfort thing. It's not a protective thing, I don't know. Okay.

Speaker 1: 23:32

I think that is part of it. I think it can be those two things. I think it can be for your comfort and I think it can be for your safety or your protection, or the protection of something like your time or your sanity or your, whatever the case may be. So, yeah, I think that's totally applicable. I think it is, but I think the point that you're making is know yourself when making a boundary. That's the point.

Speaker 1: 23:57

The point is, what do I tend to draw boundaries around? How do I tend to prioritize, or how am I motivated in my life? Am I motivated to making people feel really good? If that's a primary motivator for me, if I tend to be somebody who wants to make people feel good all around me, my boundaries I might need to have that in check, as I'm drawing those boundaries. And again to your original point, drawing boundaries is or being decisive, or whatever you want to call it is a key indicator that somebody knows themselves and that they are to me. It sounds like if you're going to protect yourself like that and I'm somebody important to you, then you're probably going to protect me like that too.

Speaker 1: 24:40

So that's a great signal to me of who that person is right, and don't we all want the people around us to know better who we are and to treat us accordingly to how we see ourselves? And those people who don't draw boundaries are absolutely seen that way. I mean, it is, the oldest trope in history is that you tell other people how to treat you, and that comes squarely down to where you draw those boundaries and where you draw those delineations of can and won't and will and shan't.

Speaker 2: 25:15

Yes, I said shan't. Yeah, it definitely has me thinking about my boundary, because I do think I know myself and I also prioritize other people and if I haven't set that clear boundary, I'll use an example of how many nights away I can be away each month before things get weird in our family, and that's a really interesting boundary, because that's not with one single entity.

Speaker 1: 25:44

You're talking about having a firm boundary that crosses multiple relationships and multiple obligations, and so you have this invisible thread running through all of them, and the thread is you and your relationship to your family, which all of those things are agnostic to until you make it a point to draw them together. Yeah right, your volunteer opportunities don't know or care about your family, because that's not the relationship. The relationship was with you. The only way that they fall into a magnetized relationship is by you drawing that line.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Right, and I think I do have some pretty firm time boundaries. For that reason, yeah, time boundaries. For that reason, for the, I'll say my husband and I had a conversation how many times can I miss dinner and bedtime before it starts to disrupt and not talking about work trips that happen every so often that might take us out?

Speaker 1: 26:45

either one of us out for a few days at a time, but we landed on two feels about right In a five-day period or in a seven-day period In a month.

Speaker 2: 26:50

Oh, in a month. Oh, okay, yeah. And we're also not talking about date nights, because if we're both out of the picture then we've outsourced that. But it means that I have a friend commitment dinner once a month and then one other night a month is what I am prioritizing to include my volunteer activities, to include the any sort of networking event, and it's not like this is very strict. You know, I think if I went to my husband and I said I think it's really important that I go to this thing for this reason, it would not be a, you know, a capital B, capital D, big deal.

Speaker 2: 27:26

And yet I have that in my mind, so that when those things come up, I can say I'm not going to do that and I feel really good about saying I'm not going to do that because I know that it's true to who I am and to my commitments that I've made to my family.

Speaker 1: 27:41

So yeah, again, I hear that as safe. You're're safe in that. That's the line that you guys have agreed on and you know you're not going to I'm going to use the term violate, which seems like an overstatement, but you're not going to violate that. He's not going to violate that because it's an agreement and a boundary that you've set together intentionally. That's what I mean by safe Like.

Speaker 1: 28:04

You get to kind of like sit very nicely in that space and say, oh, this is, you know, this is the number of times I have to work within. And it doesn't have to be exact, because obviously, you know, different months have different things going on and things like that. But there is definitely a safety in that. And I think if you were to say to anybody who asked you to do something outside of those boundaries, you'd say, oh, I already have too many evening commitments this month. Can we push it to next month? I have an open, available spot. I feel like that. Again, back to your original point. I would consider that to be pretty boss, pretty like oh, look at this person knowing their schedule and being all protected with their time.

Speaker 1: 28:49

I see that as definitely a feather in the cap of somebody, anybody who's a professional, certainly, but really anyone who you can tell values their time.

Speaker 2: 29:00

Yeah, I think the boundary, the time boundary, feels so much easier to work within in a lot of ways. Like I am only going to take one evening client call a week and the rest of the time I am seeing clients between nine and four, sometimes five, depending on the day, because I have these other commitments and it kind of goes into this. The shift between commitments and obligations, goes into this shift between commitments and obligations and I don't know, I kind of waffle between those. But like family obligations sounds one way, family commitments sounds another way to me. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 29:38

The thing I tend to think about that is people see, many people this is not a few, this is a very universal thing obligations as much, much more hard and fast than they really are, and so my mind, I kind of give it the flu test, the flu test are we talking Harry Potter or?

Speaker 1: 30:01

influenza, influenza, the second. Whereas if I had the flu, would this thing continue on without me with very little disruption, because when you have the flu you're just not going, it's just not happening, it's not on the table, it's not an option, unless you're Michael Jordan in the NBA finals of whatever, whatever year somebody will probably quote back. But most of the time you're not going and most of the time that thing will continue without you yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:32

I think, and it will probably have extremely limited disruption for the thing itself, unless you are the keynote speaker or something like that. But even then there are backups, there are things that happen. So my flu test is to say, if I don't want to do something, give it that test, give it that litmus test of saying like, does this thing really require me or is it just in my head that I need to be there because I've made this obligation? And I am not saying or advocating for not fulfilling obligations. I'm a little bit of an old school person where that's concerned, you are.

Speaker 1: 31:04

I like RSVPing, I like showing up when I'm supposed to show up and where that's concerned.

Speaker 2: 31:07

You are. I like RSVP. I like showing up when I'm supposed to show up. That's I do like. I also hate canceling plans.

Speaker 1: 31:15

I feel, yes, I have a very strong desire not to be flaky. Exactly Hell or high water is what it takes for me to do that. But there, there is a medium ground here, and I have a lot easier time of doing the flu test on other people's obligations, a little bit less of a time of doing it with my own. And there's another test that I heard about recently, which is if you wouldn't say yes to it today. If the thing is today, then you probably shouldn't say yes to it in a month, because your feelings on it are probably not going to change that much, correct?

Speaker 2: 31:43

And you are kind of reading my mind, because that is when I think about the boundaries. I think what they really enable us to do is to forecast out what we're going to say yes and no to based on those boundaries for ourselves, and that it is a trap to say, well, I can't prioritize that right now, but I know that in three months I will, because, unless you actually do want to prioritize that right now and cannot because of some short-term commitment, I'm looking at myself in the mirror as I say that, knowing that there are many things we all are.

Speaker 1: 32:21

That's the whole point of this podcast is for us to actually just look at ourselves in the mirror and say, okay, lisa Jess, I have a short-term commitment for the next two months that I am really working towards.

Speaker 2: 32:34

But unless you are genuinely sad about saying no to it now, then probably in two months, as you said, you're not going to feel differently. I had a client who was constantly overscheduled because of this trap, because she would say yes to things that future her she was sure would want to say yes to. But it turns out future you and current you are, you know, different in ways that you can't imagine and the same in many others Totally.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Yes, essentially, they're different people, and what setting a boundary especially around your time, but also in other ways is it does give you the space to be the person or have the life or prioritize the thing that you really want to prioritize or that you want to be. So, if you want to be the kind of parent that doesn't allow your kids to sit on screen time for six hours a day, setting a boundary allows you to be that person. That boundary allows you to be the kind of parent that you truly want to be. Setting your time boundaries around your precious, precious morning thinking hours allows you to put those hours towards the thing that you want to be, that you most are interested in becoming or of being. And I think, in the end, that's why it is so sexy is because people who do that probably are very, very good versions of themselves, because they set the boundaries to become the thing that they want to be.

Speaker 2: 34:04

And so, then, setting boundaries is not just about who we are, but who we want to be, because we're establishing what type of person am I, what would a person like me do in a situation like this, and what boundary needs to be set in order to enable a person like me to do that thing in that situation?

Speaker 1: 34:26

Yep, yep, exactly, and you do have to frame to your point. You have to frame it in terms of your current self. You cannot frame it in terms of your future self Because, as we alluded to just a few minutes ago, research has shown that your future self is as different from you as a distant co worker, but your future self is held in your mind as a not close colleague of yours. So you cannot do things on behalf of your future self, especially hard things. You're just you're not going to do it. That's why the motivation has to be today. That's why saying oh, I want to work out for two hours today, because six months from now, I want to look amazing Like that's not really going to work out for two hours today, because six months from now, I want to look amazing Like that's not really going to work.

Speaker 1: 35:09

It's only going to work for today. For you, right now, in the present, to say I want to work out two hours today because I want to be the kind of person that works out for two hours, yeah, which is it's harder and it's easier, depending on how you look at it. I'm also not advocating for working out for two hours a day, yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:27

I think we have such an interesting relationship with our future selves and our past selves and how I think boundaries play a role in that for sure, but even just how we conceptualize that person. It's like I want to be the best past Jess I can be for future Jess In the future, right, because I know and I will think about these things. I am going on vacation for a week and I have scheduled things the day that I get back and I know that I am going to be sitting in that chair on that day and seething at your past, self Seething at your past self.

Speaker 2: 36:09

I know that, and I know that I am making that decision intentionally, because it is in pursuit of a higher goal.

Speaker 1: 36:16

But yeah, because present Jess made those meetings for, essentially, the accountant who sits down, you know, 10 cubicles away, right, those are the meetings that were set, and yet cubicles away. Those were the meetings that were set and yet they have a higher purpose. Like you said, there is a rhyme and a reason to what we choose. I think doing it intentionally is the key, and remembering the goals that we have as well, because you have a very, very specific set of goals that you're looking to achieve and it's going to mean some present discomfort.

Speaker 2: 36:51

It does In the same way. I think it's very analogous to that exercise that I do today. That's going to make my legs super sore and tomorrow, future Jess might be upset with me for making those decisions and will also be thankful that I did a hard thing. Yes, this is a hypothetical exercise that I haven't done yet today, but you know in theory.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Well, I have exercised today. Well, that's good, and I'm very, very proud of myself for doing that.

Speaker 2: 37:19

I am also proud of you, thank you. I was a little not under the weather, but I just didn't sleep well last night and I had a really bad headache which both sound like excuses, but also they are very real in not being able to.

Speaker 1: 37:35

I think stuff can be two things. It can be two things Okay, absolutely Well.

Speaker 2: 37:39

Thank you for unpacking my boundary thing. I think this idea of it not being porous, but maybe where you draw the boundary, is important in knowing if the boundary is pre-negotiated versus where something new is maybe a little bit further to the left. That would be entertainable because it's not yet up against the boundary, try to figure out some of these boundaries for themselves.

Speaker 1: 38:06

One step is finding out what type of person you are, in terms of where you tend to put your emphasis, but also, as we just got done talking about like I mean, I might go do this right now. Actually, it's like who do I really want to be and what boundaries are associated with being that person, and I feel like that exercise alone would be very clarifying, right.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Right, because if I want to be a parent who is present with her children every night, that or most nights, that has this incredibly connected bedtime thing, then I have to be there for bedtime.

Speaker 1: 38:45

Yes, it is a requirement, yes, absolutely. But I think there are ones, too that are more. There's a lot of different ways to get at a thing that you want to be, but finding out that thing that is feasible because feasibility is a big part of a boundary you can't have a boundary that's unreasonable, right? I can't have a podcast if I have a boundary that says I refuse to record on Friday afternoons. That's gonna be really difficult, right? So the boundary has to be feasible. It has to be something that is achievable for all parties involved.

Speaker 2: 39:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:17

Especially the person who's laying down the boundary, because if you're not going to stand by your boundary, then it's not really a boundary Right?

Speaker 2: 39:24

Oh, I definitely agree with you there. Yeah, yeah, I'm getting a little hung up on this. It has to be feasible, I think, in order to be enforceable. I think the goals have to, the boundaries have to support the goals. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of, yeah, yeah, and if they are in direct conflict with the goals, then one or the other is going to have some trouble, and in that case the boundary is not a boundary if you have to break it or the goal is not feasible because you don't have the support. You need to get to that.

Speaker 1: 39:58

Yes, I think the way that I was thinking about that is in terms of a goal has to be smart, and part of the smart framework is that it has to be something that is achievable. It has to be something that is actually like within the realm of physical and mental capability for whoever is involved with it, because if you have a goal of becoming a physicist and you don't have a PhD, that's going to be really, really difficult for you to do.

Speaker 2: 40:23

Yeah, yeah, okay, so well, thanks for unpacking that with me.

Speaker 1: 40:26

Absolutely. We have time. There's a little bit of.

Speaker 2: 40:28

French, I know you were chewing on something this week. Do we have time to unpack? We have a little bit of time.

Speaker 1: 40:37

We have a little bit of time. I was thinking about confidence Related. What a fickle, fickle beast confidence is and how it relates similarly to grief. Oh, I know, tell me more In that neither are linear. So confidence I kind of always had in my mind that confidence was this thing. Because you hear this phrase, build up confidence right.

Speaker 1: 41:10

It's like a skill that you learn and once you learned it you don't unlearn it, like riding a bicycle. But that's not true, and it's the same thing is also true of grief. There is no linear way out of grief. You go up, you go down, it hurts. It hurts less depending on the time or the year or the what's going on. And I think confidence is like that and I was just kind of mentally wrestling with confidence because once you achieve a level of confidence, it's really hard to go backwards in your confidence. You mean it's hard, hard to go backwards in your confidence.

Speaker 1: 41:43

You mean it's hard to when something shapes your confidence and you're back to maybe where you were five years ago with your confidence. You're like, oh, this hurts so much more because you know what it can feel like to be confident in yourself or your abilities or whatever the case may be, and I was feeling very, very up and down. I referred to the idea of getting laid off today as a roller coaster, which is not a new analogy, but I think the thing that feels most roller coaster-y about it is that up and down it's highs, it's lows, it's not a whole lot of mediums, as I've just discovered, and the confidence rides along the track with you in these different things. And as somebody who is relatively senior level in my area of expertise, confidence is generally quite high for me and my marketability as an employee, we'll say. But when it's low it just rocks you so much more.

Speaker 1: 42:47

And I am not somebody who has had a ton of experience with grief, but I have studied it sort of intellectually at a distance, and that is what it is referred to, as is this you know you're doing great, you're moving up, you're getting further and further away from that acuteness, but then when you drop back down it is so much more painful because you're right back in that feeling that you have just climbed out of. So that is what I've been feeling this week and working through this week and I think overall it it is a steady incline right directionally it's kind of up, yeah, yeah yeah, up and to the right, exactly like all good graphs go.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Yeah yeah, but when you zoom in you feel those big you see those peaks and valleys, you do and you feel them at this stage and I'm very zoomed in and that's a really good point. It's hard to zoom out when you are riding something so acute and I'm in a zoomed in place right now and in a year from now I'll be in a very zoomed out place regarding this specific set of times.

Speaker 2: 44:00

Which makes me wonder where do you have the opportunity to zoom out, or what can you do to zoom?

Speaker 1: 44:06

out. I think a great way is to not focus so much on yourself. That's a great opportunity to zoom out, is to think about somebody other than yourself or, in my case, me, and it's a really good reminder for me that there are a lot of other people in the situation. There are a lot of other people in my family, there are a lot of other people that depend on me and that I can focus on, and when you are focusing on somebody else, you necessarily cannot focus on yourself and those little peaks and valleys.

Speaker 2: 44:40

I think there's a bit of a vicious cycle that happens here, where we'll use scarcity mindset because it's kind of top of mind for me where when you're in a scarcity mindset, it's really hard to feel enough because it makes you anxious, and when you're anxious you're zoomed in, and when you're zoomed in you only notice what you have, and when you only notice what you have, you're back at scarcity over and over again.

Speaker 1: 45:05

Yes, and it is really hard to jump out of that. It is.

Speaker 2: 45:09

And so I think I love this idea of zooming out and thinking about other people and kind of putting it in this seeing what the big graph is. What else could you do to make it? I don't know to make it more incremental, because I feel like thinking about somebody else or thinking about the self. It's just like flipping a switch on and off and on and off, and like that kind of makes me feel like I might be getting whiplash trying to hop in.

Speaker 1: 45:37

In general, I usually advise people to stay as much in the present as possible for all of the reasons that we talked about at the top of the show, which is, you know, you don't want to miss, you don't want to not be mindful leaning viewpoint where you can think about a little bit further out, not so far out that it gets overwhelming, but not so close in that you're feeling those teensy little redirections in your confidence or redirections in your grief. It gets a little bit more smooth when you're looking out ever so slightly further and I think that that can just make the ride, the roller coaster, feel a little less bouncy and a little more creamy. I went peanut butter with it.

Speaker 2: 46:29

I was wondering wow, I'm thinking about well, before you got to peanut butter. But in that analogy you're welcome, thanks. Now I can't unsee peanut butter. You're welcome, thanks, now I can't unsee peanut butter. You're looking for the shock absorber in the system. Yes, exactly when you. Maybe just what would allow you to have a smoother ride. And that's de-emphasizing, in some ways, that zoomed in-ness. It's de-emphasizing a little bit the present quagmire that is like sucking you in to. Just. It's almost like in a car if you stare at something you will hit it, like you have to look out just a little bit to the horizon to be able to go where you want to go To use those peripherals a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 47:16

You have to use your full field of vision. Yeah, and I think the maybe the last category and and not even I was going to say like kind of as a last ditch effort, but it's not really as a last ditch effort because it should still be a part of the equation is that self-care mechanism where you are taking stock of yourself and you are giving yourself grace and you are giving yourself time and resources and whatever resources looks like to you as an individual.

Speaker 1: 47:45

To me it looks like keeping promises to myself. Right, I will do yoga every morning for at least two minutes. When I wake up, I will wash my face very nicely and put on all the yummy products every night before I go to bed. It's a promise I keep to myself that makes me feel like I got kind of related to the boundary thing.

Speaker 1: 48:08

Yes, that very related and maybe that is the interplay between the confidence and the boundaries is is knowing yourself and being able to make and keep those commitments to yourself to make and keep those commitments to yourself and keeping your eye on that upper right-hand corner of the graph to say that's where I'm going, and it's not going to be a perfectly straight line, but that's where I'm headed. And, to your point, if you aim small, you're going to miss small. You have to look at where you're headed, you have to look at what you're going to. You have to be directionally focused in that way. And, yeah, there's going to be a little adjustments along the way. Things are going to change, things are going to shift, things are going to rock you a bit, but I think life would be a little bit boring without the rockiness. I think if everything was just a perfectly straight line, it would be a little bit.

Speaker 2: 49:06

I don't know predictable. Yeah, it's kind of like the trees without wind. I think we do need to experience the stress, to build our capacity for stress so that we can be resilient, and if we didn't ever encounter those things, then we would never have the capacity to encounter those things. I definitely agree with you there. Something that just came to mind is I did an exercise a while back where it was related to the capacity for discomfort and we just charted on this chart things that feel really, really easy, that are super comfortable to do.

Speaker 2: 49:35

And then at the bottom, things that feel really, really, really hard and would make us feel very uncomfortable, and then kind of, what are the stories that we're telling ourselves about each of those things? And I filled it in and then I observed afterwards, looking at my list, that the things that were at the top of my list that felt very easy to me now six months ago, would have been at the bottom of the list.

Speaker 2: 49:59

That felt very easy to me now. Six months ago would have been at the bottom of the list, Wow. And so I think maybe there's something in there too. In thinking about you know how to stay directionally focused is also to remind yourself of how far the goalpost has moved. Yes, and what you're feeling in that confidence gap is really just. It's so easy to forget where you've come from.

Speaker 1: 50:23

It really is, and so maybe, maybe being future focused and maybe being a little bit past focused, maybe looking at everything, but the exact present moment that you're in Maybe that's the answer is that to look a little bit in the rearview mirror and say, oh, there's a lot of distance between where I am and where I started.

Speaker 2: 50:43

That's pretty cool yeah, it's funny, I'm trying to think of how to reduce this advice, and it's like be in the present, but also be in the past and the future and be directionally focused, but not too directionally focused. You have to zoom in and also zoom out by focusing on yourself and other people Really hit on a winner here, but I think it's funny to say it like that. But I do think that there's value in all of those things, and maybe what happens is in that moment of discomfort we tell ourselves that where we are is the only place that we have or will be, and so, by engaging those past and present and future selves, we're reminding ourselves that nothing is permanent.

Speaker 2: 51:36

Yeah, and also peanut butter and also peanut butter, which is somehow bouncy. I was thinking like crunchy creamy.

Speaker 1: 51:43

Well, crunchy creamy makes sense Bouncy creamy, I'm not sure, I just really like creamy peanut butter. Yeah, me too. I prefer it like 10 to 1 over crunchy, but I have oscillated.

Speaker 2: 51:55

I have loved crunchy peanut butter in my day.

Speaker 1: 51:58

There's never been a time I can't the only thing it's good in is day. There's never been a time I can't the only thing that's good in this curry. I will stand by that. Crunchy peanut butter in curry, yeah, cause it gives a little texture to the noodles. Oh, try it.

Speaker 2: 52:09

Oh, so I guess I usually just add the crunch to it, right, right.

Speaker 1: 52:15

Exactly Pre-crunched on that note. Yes, thanks for unpacking with me today On that savory and delicious note Savory and delicious.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Thank you for unpacking with me. I am so glad.

Speaker 1: 52:27

Me too. We covered a lot of ground. We have.

Speaker 2: 52:29

And yet I'm sure that the next time we unpack, there will be yet more to unpack.

Speaker 1: 52:33

That is the thing about life it never ceases to send you things to unpack True story. Love you Jess. Love you Lisa Bye to unpack true story. Love you, jess, love you. We've got stories to share from our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week.

Speaker 2: 52:55

You won't want to miss dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.

Speaker 1: 53:08

Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa. Star method for is it star? For interviews the behavior no. No for goal setting of smart. Smart, that was the acronym that I was looking for maybe we should have reiterated that maybe before but yeah anyway,