Lots to Unpack There
We’re Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between. We’re navigating the “messy middle” of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Each week, we’ll share something real from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it’ll inspire and help you do the same—wherever you are.
Lots to Unpack There
Try It Until You Become It: Bravery, Growth & The Power of Being Seen
What You’ll Hear:
- Bravery in the Everyday – How courage isn’t just for big leaps but also for the small, uncomfortable moments we push through.
- Owning Your Story – The power of reflecting on where you’ve been and how it shapes where you’re going.
- The Ripple Effect of Validation – Why being seen and heard is one of the greatest gifts we can give—and receive.
- The Impact of Mentorship – How a simple conversation can plant seeds of confidence and possibility in someone else’s life.
- Try It Until You Become It – The mindset shift that can help you grow into the person you want to be.
Notable Moments:
“Maybe we have to be brave just to live our lives.” (22:30)
“Try it until you become it.” (28:39)
“Your voice matters today—not just when you have a degree, experience, or a platform.” (34:45)
“We assume small things don’t change the world, but maybe they do.” (43:06)
“Take the gifts you don’t know are gifts and hold onto them forever.” (54:47)
This episode is a powerful reflection on bravery, identity, and the small yet meaningful ways we shape each other’s lives.
Of note! The podcast episode Jess mentions is this one, and the psychologist she quotes is Caroline Fleck.
Tune in next week, when we'll unpack Thursdays being the best day of the week, the likability trap, and working in a male-dominated field.
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Hey, it's Jess and.
Speaker 2:Lisa. We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.
Speaker 1:We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.
Speaker 2:We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Speaker 1:So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that, as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. Good afternoon, hello. Welcome to the other bookend of our week.
Speaker 2:I know How's it going. It's been, it's good, I'm good, are you good?
Speaker 1:I am good. I was thinking about the title of this podcast. Okay, a little late to change it. No, I know For sure, for sure. But what came to mind? So when I think about unpacking, I'm thinking about therapy and kind of like digging to the bottom of a box to see what's inside. But that's not really what we do. We're not like super into why did this happen, the way that it happened, or what made you who you are. It's more like what sense are you making of this and how do you want?
Speaker 1:to carry it forward, which is totally like I would say that's one of the biggest differences between therapy and coaching. But so I started this thought of like unpacking Okay, so we're getting to the bottom of stuff, but we're also just putting stuff where it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2:It's like we've moved in and we're unpacking and I yes, that sense of unpacking, of like putting all the stuff in its place and like mentally kind of yeah, thinking, oh, this, this is, this is the category, or this is the space, or this is the you know, or I don't need that thing anymore. You know like you unpack it and then you chuck it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah. So I I've been sitting with that today of thinking you know what does it mean to unpack and we're not really digging down to see what's at the bottom of the box. We're figuring out where is that stuff going to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where does it go? Where does it all go? Mostly, I think it flows between the two of us. Before it finds its final landing point, it just goes back and forth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would tend to agree with that. So I think to answer the question of how am I doing? I think I'm doing well. You know that the sun is still shining. It's been a really nice, warm week. I'm looking forward to the weekend of next week. So, yes, it has been all good over here.
Speaker 2:That has definitely been a continuation of what we talked about last time of like, oh, the weather is so much nicer and there's so much more activity, going to the park and actually seeing people instead of it feeling like zombie land, the whole world is sort of waking up. I went for runs, I went for walks, I just I was like outside as much as possible. So it was, it was really, really, really. It was really good. In that respect, I think it was a good week actually, and maybe I will attribute some of that to getting to see you and do this twice.
Speaker 1:Sure, I'll take it yeah.
Speaker 2:Why not? Yeah, exactly, um, but yeah, yeah, it's Friday, um and uh product. I love a productive week and I feel like this has been a productive week, so I'm kind of like I'm holding on to that, like that's one of the things. That's like the easiest path to make me feel good is be productive, even at the expense of other things, sometimes like rest or um quality time with other people. Sometimes productivity it's not all the time, but sometimes productivity is just the quickest way to make me feel good, which is maybe something to like bookmark for me in the future. Like I'm feeling crappy, maybe I should be productive and then that will make me feel better and like almost assuredly it will, even if it's something as stupid as like changing the calendar.
Speaker 1:For me that shows up as making progress and it's like if I can remind myself that I'm making progress towards something, then I can. It feels good. It's like building my self-efficacy.
Speaker 2:I kind of wish mine was that. I think mine is slightly more mundane and it's like if I clear and maybe that's why my week was so much better this week is because I cleaned out my office a little bit. I have so much stuff piled up from when my daughter was in her cast. That was like all of the supporting not necessarily equipment, but like things that were dedicated to her in that time, and now that that time has passed I had to clean it all out and it just like I was amazed how much better it made me feel at my job, which is, of course, sitting in front of a computer in this box, you know, eight to 12 hours a day. So it really really did like make a big difference for me in that respect.
Speaker 1:I wonder how much of that is mental load, where you just have all of the weight of all of those things. And so, even though it was not work functional to clean your desk, you didn't need that to happen it, by doing it, it allowed you to let go of some of that load.
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 2:I think it did.
Speaker 2:It also made me feel like I was moving past this time, that time in our lives where we had to have a space dedicated to all of these special things for her as she went through this tough period.
Speaker 2:And so it was also like well, that's done, period, and so like it was also like well, that's done, and the sort of the mini joy that comes with saying like that chapter is closed and now I get to, you know, have a clean couch again, or have a clear view of my favorite pillow, which is a sugar skull pillow that sits right in the middle of my couch in my office. So yeah, I think there's, I think there's lots of stuff to it, but I think having a clean, clear space, like technically, like you said, I only need like a one by one square foot area technically to do my work, but I have I'm so lucky to have this nice, nice big office that I have but but it makes it feel better when it looks lovely. And I have a candle, which is controversial, but I still really like candles. I would say it's one of my poor habits as an adult, like something I know is not good for me, but I do it anyway.
Speaker 1:So yeah, feeling good, I'm so glad, I'm so glad you were able to do those things and really feel more like I don't know and really feel more like I don't know. I just get the sense of being more in control and having more agency and just being able to stay on top of stuff and get the stuff done that you want.
Speaker 2:That's huge. I actually I find myself like purposefully walking by my office now just so I can like peek in at it and see what it looks like, and there's like this little jolt of dopamine that hits me. Every time I see it like that and I think the reverse is true too there's a little hit of I don't know whatever the chemical in your brain is that makes you unhappy when you see something that isn't the way that it's supposed to be, and so I was getting the opposite and now I'm getting. So, instead of it being neutral, I'm getting the positive hit. So like I'm literally, like you know, doubling up. I'm two X-ing my happiness just with that little thing.
Speaker 1:I love that for you. So what are you unpacking today?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say this is probably the most positive aspect of you know, something that I've brought to be unpacked or to talk about and kind of like we've seen before, I really, really use very, very timely things in my life to bring forward, and this thing that happened, that I'm going to talk about, literally happened 30 minutes ago. So so quick, and I haven't talked to you about this before, but I was asked to speak to a group of middle school girls about leadership and so I got the opportunity to go on Zoom. Obviously they're in Utah, so I got. I got the opportunity to um. I was invited by a colleague of mine whose daughter is in this leadership special thing for fifth and sixth graders, which is, first of all, just a really really cool thing to have in your school full stop. So anyway, I was asked to do it. It's been like a month or two in the making.
Speaker 2:I brought one of the people who works with me to this event so that we could both speak kind of from different perspectives, and the thing that I was sort of unpacking is I had to sort of bring my bio, my life story, to this event, and that was one of the things that we were going to be discussing is like, who are you and how did you get here? And that is a phenomenally big question to reflect on, so big, yeah Right. And like looking at my leadership journey to getting to this point, looking at the goals that I had when I was their age and how I kind of framed it was. It was so strange. I ended up taking probably two or three hours this morning looking and examining these things, because one I just wanted to be familiar with my own life, so I didn't sound like I didn't know what I was about in the early stages of my life, but but also just really looking at what did I care about? How, how did I get here? How did I formulate this plan, which of course it was.
Speaker 2:It's where you end up is almost never. I mean, I'm sure that there are some people where this is true, but it's almost never where you think you're going to go when you're a little kid. I mean, how many people said they were going to be marine biologists when they were in like fourth grade? And like how many marine biologists? There's? Like a couple hundred marine biologists probably.
Speaker 1:Right, I think when I was in fourth grade I wanted to be Agent Scully and work for the FBI. So I mean I got kind of close with that one yeah. I think I also wanted to be an architect. I'm not really sure how those things lined up, but I did start an architecture school. So you know I got there. But to your point, I mean, our paths take such winding roads, such divergent paths from where we think they're going to go.
Speaker 2:I mean, I started out wanting to be an Air Force pilot that was my dream job when I was a kid and wanting to be an Air Force pilot, that was my dream job when I was a kid and I went so far as to like go to flight school and learn how to fly. Like I took it to that level and but as I was looking back, I really formulated these like couple of goals that I really like saw myself hitting and like I knew there would be some amount of like happiness should I get to these sort of bigger life goals. And I called my mom just to like double check my work and just make sure that I wasn't completely out on my own.
Speaker 1:I'm glad to see that your mom is not falling down on the fact checking job that I felt Right.
Speaker 2:Right. So you know, it was things like travel the world. And then I got to reflect back and be like I've kind of done that. It was live in a big city and work in a high rise I've done that too. It was, you know, be somebody whose voice matters and who could stand up in front of a group of people and be respected. Those were my dreams, truly, and I just it kind of all started from an eighth grade trip to New York City, of course, as so many seminal moments do, where I was like, ooh, city, that's me. I had never been really to a city before, not like that, and it was just so clear to me like, oh, I want to be one of those women who's walking down the street in heels and all black and who knows where they're going and who gets there and who does it, who just gets shit done. I want to be her. And anyway, it was just. It was.
Speaker 2:The reflection process was really rewarding and the speaking process was really rewarding, as it often is. The girls asked the most interesting questions, which I was not ready for 11 year olds to be asking interesting questions, but they were, and it was such a moving experience but the life unpacking kind of threw me for a loop of like how do I examine my past 40 years of living? How do I examine it as an individual with dreams and goals? And have I succeeded? Have I gotten where I wanted to go? And what does that mean for the rest of my life if I haven't, and what does it mean if I have? And all of all of these sort of yummy gooey questions.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is so cool. Well, I'm thinking I kind of am curious about a couple of different aspects of this. I'm curious about a couple of different aspects of this. The first is as you were digging into your past dreams and what leadership is, how did that process go? As you're evaluating life now, are you where you thought you were going to be? It sounds like you've done a lot of those things, so in my mind, it seems successful.
Speaker 1:I know which it's successful in a different way than you were initially expecting. Yeah, yeah, so I have. I'm curious about that. And then I'm also curious about the talk itself and what you focused on as leadership attributes, really, for all of these kids who are not related to you. I think we spend a lot of time talking about how we are in relationship with our children and how we're shaping those minds, but we really don't talk about how we're shaping the next generation in those other ways. So I'm curious about that too.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'll start with that one, because I am keenly aware, based on both common knowledge but also current scientific research, that children, especially in middle school, listen to adults who are not their parents more like 10x more than they listen to their parents, and that those words are much more weighted in their mind. And so, with that kind of in the back of my head, I wanted to, I wanted to build them up as much as possible. So it was every opportunity I took to make sure that I was bringing that focus back on them and bringing my experience back to them as people who are moving into all of these really, really exciting stages of life. So that was, I mean we did. They asked things like what was the scariest moment? What do you do if you're scared? How do you make decisions? Like I was like, so not.
Speaker 2:I was expecting them to say have you held a gun? Did you shoot people? Have you arrested anyone? I was expecting these sort of when I told them that I was, you know, a special agent, I was expecting a totally different line of thinking and they did kind of come around to a couple of those things in the end, but they really wanted to know, like kind of. How did you become you in these little?
Speaker 1:ways. It's almost like how do you exist in the world? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what they were most interested in and I was just floored and of course I told them so because I really was floored by the cleverness of their questions and I was just so touched that they wanted to know that information.
Speaker 1:That is really cool. What did you tell them?
Speaker 2:About when I was scared and what decisions I made.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, like I said, luckily I had my direct report there with me and so if ever I got a little stumped, I just tossed to her and I think we did that pretty effectively. But I was really happy with my answer for how do I make decisions? Because I brought it back to values. Actually, I did this several times during the meeting or during the discussion. I guess it was because I do see that in my life as now a 40 year old person that it kind of all roads a little bit lead back to your values. And so they asked me another question of when, what was, what was a time that you had to do something really hard or something along those lines. And the answer was when I had to leave my job because it didn't align to my values.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of these questions and answers led back to this values discussion, and I was so, so, so glad that that happened organically, because what better time to talk about values than when you are actually forming those values? I mean, I think it's a lifelong process, but middle schoolers in particular, this is when they are really experimenting with who am I, why am I, what am I, what do I do when, and all of that ties back to them forming these values and it was just so rewarding and so interesting and it felt so good. They were just like they were reacting. You could see their faces go whoa or ah or ooh or yes or whatever. I got a couple of applause breaks, which was pretty nice. I told them I wasn't fishing, but thank you, yeah, the was pretty nice, I told him.
Speaker 1:I wasn't fishing, but thank you. Yeah, the validation is nice.
Speaker 2:And then to your first question I I was surprised that this was the path that I took, but I really tried to literally put myself back in my body and my mind as a little kid and by little kid I mean like middle schooler age. I say a little kid cause they look so little on the screen, but you know they're walking, talking, regular humans with thoughts and emotions and opinions and all sorts of stuff. So I put myself back in that mindset of like what was I dreaming about? And I had to do this whole like I don't know there's probably a word for it where you like kind of re-embody a different version of yourself. And I just I did that for a minute and I just saw these sort of like flashes of this corporate badass lady and I just, oh, that's what I wanted out of my life. I wanted to be a corporate badass lady, that's what I recall and I wanted to be in a city and I wanted to be both faceless and nameless and respected and cared about and interesting. I wanted to be all of those things and I wanted to do it in every major city in the world basically. So that was my process.
Speaker 2:I also did look through some old journals, which was interesting but actually didn't help me very much, because all of the old journals were of Girl Scouting trips which were 99% to the middle of nowhere, hiking and camping, and what it did clarify for me was that was never a dream of mine, that was never an interest of mine. That was something I did because that was what I needed to do at that time, because that's what my mom wanted me to do. So that was a good all right, I can check that one off. That wasn't one of those, that was just something I did. I mean they were lovely pictures and scrapbooks of all of those times. I was mostly just impressed with my mom that she was able to pull off such complicated year long events while she had two kids and worked full time. Like I even asked her that today. I was like how, how, why, how, how did you do that? And her answer was I didn't sleep and I was like, well, that's not awesome, yeah, familiar, uh, very familiar to me.
Speaker 1:I'm curious about how so you embodied this previous version of you. What pieces of you did you bring back with you into the present moment?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I guess that's what I'm here to unpack. I guess I think, even just in talking to you now, I didn't really get necessarily this feeling when I was talking to the girls, because I was really just in the moment talking to them. But as I look at it now, like if those truly were my goals, I really have succeeded in a lot of ways and I have been, I have worked towards those things in a lot of ways and I think I feel really good. I don't know. I feel lucky that I had the opportunity to do the stuff that I've done and I feel really, really proud that I had the courage.
Speaker 2:And they asked a couple questions about being brave and having courage to do things and working through being scared, and I owned. I'm scared every single day, there's no question about it, and yet I still do the things, I still get up and I do the things. And it's something that my mom in particular, has always said about me it's like you've just been like so brave your whole life. You've just you've picked up and you've gone to foreign countries by yourself and you've you've taken on things that you weren't necessarily ready for, and all of this and like I think now, looking back, it kind of gives me the opportunity to say like, oh, I think I was pretty brave to do those things. I think I was more brave then than I probably am now. And maybe in 20 years from now I'll look back on now and be like, oh man, I was super brave then too.
Speaker 2:And maybe maybe the thing is we just have to be brave just to live our lives. Maybe we just have to be brave, and maybe it's not really about me at all. It's the world that we live in and the lives that we choose to live that kind of force us into this discomfort and need to be courageous more often than not. I mean, I think about just the idea of having kids. You have to be extremely courageous to have children and to live every day of your life scared of something, even if it's just in my new moment that they're going to fall down the stairs, that they're going to smack their sister's teeth out with a baseball bat by accident, that they're, you know, whatever the case we live in.
Speaker 2:And so it's not really about me. It's about I chose a life where being brave was a necessity and, luckily, being brave being a necessity is not a life and death sort of thing, because there are lots of people that don't choose that life either. They don't choose to have to decide if they're, what shelter they're going to live in or whatever. So I'm very, very fortunate. So I think it's a combination of luck and choice that forces you into this state of bravery and I just it feels really nice to be able to kind of like show that to a bunch of young minds who are, I mean, I don't know, a whole lot of 11 year olds. I must say that's not a, not a demographic. I hang out with a lot. I have to imagine these girls are cut above.
Speaker 2:I don't know they just, it just seems so, I don't know wise and sweet and very inspiring.
Speaker 1:It's funny that you are talking about bravery and courage. I didn't put that on my list of four values. It's like up in the top 10 probably but I have the word bravery on my vision board and I just landed on it. And I have brave on a post-it note on my monitor right next to me, exactly Because it's baked into the world we live in.
Speaker 2:You would just you own your own business. You're brave every single day of your life. You have to be Well I think so.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because I don't think I would disagree with you. I think we've talked about bravery and being courageous and how, for me, there's always an element of fear or discomfort in being brave. It's knowing that things could go one way and hoping that they go the other way and moving forward anyway. So that's really resonant with me. But I'm wondering, as you are looking back on your life I mean you've talked about now but where is that through line in those experiences you examined with the girls? When were you most brave or when did you have the opportunity to be brave?
Speaker 2:I mean, like I said, like I think looking back is so easy to see the brave moments. It's your current life. That's not easy to see the brave moments because you're just in it. You're just. You know what is it that our friend says when you must, you can Like. That's what it is when you have a meeting on your calendar, that it's with a bunch of people that hold the fate of your program in their very hands. You get up the nerve, you get the PowerPoint presentation together and you get there and you do the thing, and it is scary, but we don't think about it as being brave in that moment. We think about it as getting through the thing. It's only well after the fact that you, you know, give yourself any sort of credit for it. So I mostly see, you know the, the big, the big chunks you know of my life where I like when.
Speaker 2:When my family moved to Korea, that was a big leap. When I decided to study abroad, to Argentina, and picked up and did that. When I, after senior year of high school, decided to go to Europe for three weeks by myself, with no real plan, that was an interesting choice on my part, you know. When I decided to leave the government and go to the private sector at Amazon, without one tiny speck of knowledge about what I was getting myself into truly, and I knew that after the fact, once I got there. I didn't quite realize what a brave move that was, until I was there for a little while. But I see I take these leaps. I do take leaps in my life. I take leaps of faith that I'm going to figure it out, and so far that has been the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it sounds like you kind of want to find the brave moments now. What are the signs? What can you be looking for to see bravery in the everyday?
Speaker 2:I think you're right. I think it's discomfort. I think it's. I mean, even what I did today. I was uncomfortable to some extent doing that. I was like, oh my God, I could go and sit in front of these girls and they could be bored out of their minds at what I have to say Another adult talking at me, lecturing me about my life, yada, yada, yada. I don't care. And, and I did it and it was great. And I think it is about recognizing the bravery in your life. But it's also about taking that stance of yes and just doing the thing and just I don't. I don't like the phrase fake it till you make it. I don't like that phrase. I've never liked that phrase.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't care for it either.
Speaker 2:But I, but I like some derivation of it which is like try it until you become it and like that's what I want to be. I want to be the person that does it. Until I'm that, until I can put that as part of who?
Speaker 1:I am, oh, I love that so much. I don't think we've ever talked about that, but I really, really like that.
Speaker 2:So that's just, you know, a way that I want to be more of, and I would be very, very happy if my kids saw me doing that. And I know that I'm like I'm setting myself up for a little bit of heartbreak with that, because I'm basically training my kids to go out into the world without me and do great things, and I'm just going to sit back here and say but I miss you.
Speaker 2:Come back, please come back for Thanksgiving, and I know that's going to hurt a little bit, but I think it's going to feel so good to know that that was the example that I set and that they were unflinchingly ready to make the same choices for themselves, whatever those choices might be, that they would bet on themselves in that way.
Speaker 1:That is really cool. Choices might be that they would bet on themselves in that way. That is really cool. What else is coming?
Speaker 2:up for you with this talk. Just pretty, pretty cool that I am in a position that people want to hear. Like that was as I got a little bit more into my career. I always wanted to be the person that people ask to speak at things, whether it's conferences or like the TED stage or whatever. Like I think that's that's a very, very big job. But I always wanted to be the type of person where people said I think we could use your voice here, I think we could use your story here in this scenario and your experience and whatever that is. And so I just felt like, oh my gosh, like I know it's a bunch of 11 year olds, but like I feel pretty good that I was, that my story was something that would make a difference potentially to them or would inspire them or would make them feel good about themselves. I mean, I'm sort of guessing a lot of that, but I don't know. I think I felt really kind of cool.
Speaker 1:That is so cool. I, looking back in my own experience, we had a couple of alum from my high school that came to visit and and do it. I don't know that it was a career day, but it was. You know people out in the world. They were in their twenties and th, I think, and I remember they-.
Speaker 2:And they probably seemed so old to you.
Speaker 1:I mean, probably I was 14 or 15. But I remember them saying underscoring the importance of relationships and how the experience of my high school was very intense and truly like a crucible of sorts. So, people who have come through the other side, there's a lot of bonding that has happened. I still am in daily communication with my best friends from high school, but that's what they said. They said you are going to form relationships here that stay with you the rest of your life and, sure enough, at least two of the people that I was sitting with are still in that spot in my life, and so I would say you're probably right on that. Your experience is going to have a lasting impact because we have our own lens through which we view the world and the things that we can see and dream and imagine. And you just gave them a whole other world that they probably would not have dreamed of, seen or imagined, and that is so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, especially these girls are in Utah. It's not like they come across people who've worked for the federal government and work in security. They don't come across those people all of the time, probably, and so it was. It was very cool to feel even a little bit exotic right. Like I'm from the East coast, I get to talk about that whole. I can talk about Washington DC and and my my coworker got to talk about New York city and it was just um anyway it was it was really, really cool.
Speaker 2:It's been been. It's been good to kind of do the kind of the the unpacking that I did earlier this morning and it's been kind of good to to talk about it with you now and it just it gives all sorts of sort of yummy feel-good inspiration, and that's a sort of hard cocktail to come across, I feel like, in in our very routine sort of lives it's. It's hard to find that inspiration sometimes, and so I just, yeah, I'm really really, really glad that it came about the way that it did.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that it was a leadership group. Where did leadership tie in to your talk with them?
Speaker 2:They asked a couple of questions about leadership. I can't remember who it was, but it was some, I don't. I couldn't remember whether it was an adult or a child but asked about the very, very tough question. This was the only one that we were sort of stumped on, which was how does it feel to be a woman in a male dominated field? And it was really tough for me to decide, and I did this work out loud to them.
Speaker 2:I said I'm a little bit torn on how to answer this question because I want to answer it in the world that I hope you come into when you're ready to enter the workforce and that's what I'm and that's what we're going to talk about is is all of the good of being a voice of a female in whatever sort of industry you end up in.
Speaker 2:And I said but the other part of me wants to tell you a little bit about the difficulties of it, because it's not always easy.
Speaker 2:And I sort of ended, actually, my little talk on the idea of whose voice matters, and I said your voice, your viewpoint, it's not that it matters when you get a college degree or when you have experience or when you have a bunch of people who buy into what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Your voice matters now, it matters today, and what you have to say is important, and other people can disagree with you and that's fine, but it doesn't make what you think and you feel and you perceive to be invalid in any way. And I wanted to make that point because it's really really easy. I mean, we talk about feeling invalidated like it's this sort of flippant thing, and it does. It happens almost in a blink of an eye, in the bat of an eyelash, in the, in a look someone gives you on zoom, or in a in a terse, I don't know, change of subject or you know. It happens in a lot of different ways, and so I wanted them to kind of take away that, that little piece, because that is first of all it's truth. But if they feel that, then the other stuff won't be as hard, I think.
Speaker 1:I love the concept of validation. As backstory, I listened to a podcast last week or a couple weeks ago on that topic and the speaker was very intentional about defining validation as not being in agreement. It's just seeing somebody that their experience is valid, and there are so many small ways that we can do that for other people. I was so taken by this podcast. I busted out my notes app and I actually wrote it down. She said I can't possibly understand what this person is going through, but I can feel their suffering and I can create a space where they can speak to or about that suffering and I can encourage them to speak. Suffering is suffering and every single person suffers and every single person does well to be seen in that suffering. It's helpful to be seen and that idea about being seen is one of the greatest gifts we can give to other people and one of the greatest skills that we can instill in children as they're developing that, whatever your values are, that you develop being connected as humans is important.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I love that you were able to give them that idea of what it means to matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I hope so. I hope at least a couple of them took that away and were able to say like, oh, my voice matters, Like, even if it doesn't, even if it doesn't come across today, I hope it's like a little little mental time bomb that goes off, you know, at just the right moment and that when that moment comes to them and it will come to them, no matter how much progress we make in the next 10 to 15 years, while they are still growing before they hit the workforce, there will still be moments like this where they will have to say, wait, nope, my voice matters. And I hope that there is a teeny, tiny kernel of what I said that is part of that amalgam that goes off at that moment. I'm sure it will be That'd be, that'd be so great, and I'll never know. But but I, I just didn't really realize how rewarding this whole experience would be. So thank you for giving me the the time to take it all in.
Speaker 1:Of course, but I'm curious kind of in our theme of unpacking. So you've talked about values and what it means for you and how bravery is woven throughout your decisions and your life. You've talked about how you want to take that bravery forward and acknowledge the brave moments in the moment. Yeah, what else is missing that you want to unpack and figure out where it's going to live on your shelf?
Speaker 2:That's such a good question. I don't know. Am I missing something?
Speaker 1:No, I don't no. I'm not missing anything, Okay good, I don't think so, I'm just really. It seems like it was just such. It felt almost full circle, as you were describing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it felt full circle, it did. And yet it also felt a little bit like almost like a memory too, I think partially a memory of being one of those girls getting inspired by other people and I think also in the way that I used to, I used to do that with especially with Girl Scouts, I would kind of necessarily there were a lot of opportunities to mentor younger Scouts and it was in really little ways, it was just in tiny interactions and events and things like that. But I think it did remind me a little bit of that too and that I really I remember us all all of us senior level Girl Scouts really really liking those moments. I remember we taught younger Girl Scouts dance once. We taught them like a dance routine and it was one of the highlights of our year. It was just such a silly little one-off evening where we had a bunch of little brownies and daisies who came in and we taught them this little routine and then they performed it and we just felt so good.
Speaker 2:And I think maybe the other thing that I'm unpacking off the shelf is like, don't underestimate the value of being that for people, for people younger than you or people in a different part of their life than you or whatever. Like, don't, don't get it twisted, that's an important thing. That like, yes, it's good for them, but, good God, it's gotta be good for you too, as a person, as a, as a being with a soul. That has got to be a very, very give back sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, I could not agree with you more about that. One of the things that's coming to mind is that you just never really know what other people are going through and what their experiences are. And those tiny acts of kindness of seeing somebody, of validating their experience, acts of kindness of seeing somebody, of validating their experience, of just saying like, yeah, again, I see, you can go such a long way, I mean, it can truly be life-changing, it can turn someone's day around, and it reminds me of I can't remember I don't think we've talked about it on the pod and I can't remember if we've talked about it in real life, in 3D, but it was the idea that in time travel you go back and you can't touch anything.
Speaker 1:You can't disturb anything, because any small change could change the world. And yet, in our current life, we engage in millions of decisions every day, most of which are unconscious, and we don't ever think that something so small could change the world, and this is one of those things.
Speaker 2:It's a paradox. It really is, because you think that one small thing could make the world turn into dust. Basically is the whole butterfly effect theory. One small thing could also mean the difference between. I mean, in a hugely positive way it could turn around climate change, or it could bring about the right people and the right government and all. I mean yeah, if you have it one way, you got to have it the other way too.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but we don't really give that side of the coin very much press.
Speaker 2:It's always the other side, no press.
Speaker 1:And so I think it is really empowering and also maybe kind of a responsibility, that every time we're interacting with people, they're going through something, they're going through some sort of change or some sort of transition or some sort of something like suffering is everywhere, and it doesn't have to be suffering with a capital S. It could be that they pulled their back muscle or that they're feeling a little sad today for whatever reason. But what do we owe each other as fellow humans? To help make sense of this world, to help move past whatever that blocker is.
Speaker 1:And it's just engaging in even just casual conversation with somebody could spark something really great in them.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally. I mean, we've all been there, We've all had a conversation that didn't need to have any meaning attributed to it, but it did. It did change the way you thought about something, which changed the way you acted about something, which changed the way that you felt about something which changed. I mean it can absolutely have the ripple effect, for sure, yeah, it just reverberates.
Speaker 2:And I think everyone wants to believe that their impact on other people will be a positive ripple and like, that's a little bit on us it's not entirely on us, but it's a little bit on us to ensure that that's the case and it's a lot of responsibility when you think about every single interaction that you might have on a daily basis.
Speaker 1:But I think it is an opportunity space. It's where you know most of our interactions are just going to be zipping by each other, because we're all supporting actors and actresses in each other's main line lives.
Speaker 2:You're not. You are definitely a guest star, at the very minimum.
Speaker 1:For my life, yes, and vice versa. At the very minimum, for my life, yes and and vice versa. But like the guy that I pass on 175 on my way to the grocery store, probably you know he's just going about his own day, but it's, it's the little acts of kindness that can make a big deal or make a big difference. And even just giving someone that benefit of the doubt, like just not letting it ruin your day, like a bad moment does not make a bad day, because then that too is a choice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we have a choice for how we ripple other people, but we also have a choice in our own lives of how we can interrupt a ripple if it's not the way we want it to go too, and I think both of those are really undervalued in terms of what we can control, right? So, like I don't think that people often think about those those things as things we can control, because when somebody does something to you, it feels like it's not in our control, but there is an element that is in your control of like how am I going to let this spiral or not spiral, my day or my year or my month or whatever? So I think all of that is a well-timed, you know, piece of I don't know, I guess a goal. Maybe it's, maybe it's like a stretch goal of like what if my stretch goal was every interaction that I had with the person was to have this positive inspiration laid upon them, and then that would make me feel great. That would make them feel great.
Speaker 1:Well, obviously that's not possible because I'm a human and I mess up all the time, every day, sure, but I'm really curious if you start, if you follow this thread and you just like try it out for a day and say like, oh, what is that going to be like? What does that require of me? I think it is. There is some confirmation bias that happens there, where then you'll start seeing it and you'll see more of it and more positivity. And then you know, like you become this positivity magnet where you try it until you become it and then you just are I don't know like this comforting presence. I think it's a really cool, a really cool way to interact with the world, and maybe part of it is just staying open to the possibility that it could mean something greater than just that moment. It reminds me, oh, my gosh, my brain is kind of on fire right now, but do you remember we went to Charlottesville for a little weekend away. We did, we did, and there was a guy giving free hugs. Do you remember him?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, oh of course I do. I, low-key, thought you were going to get murdered for a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, I mean, what girl's trip is complete without a moment like that? But he was so he was blindfolded and he was just holding the sign that said or maybe it was on the ground, but it just said free hugs and I was like I would love a free hug and I gave him a hug and it was one of the best hugs. I mean it was so, it was so good.
Speaker 1:I remember you remarking that he was an exceptional hugger. Yes, and the feeling was apparently mutual because he gave me the same comment. But I mean, that's just like I probably will never see that guy again.
Speaker 2:I think that's very, very likely that you will not.
Speaker 1:Yeah probably, and I think that's very, very likely that you will not yeah, probably. He put an opportunity out in the world to connect souls, yeah, and that was just so cool and meaningful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you took it, yeah, and you responded, you answered in like to that call and I mean I wouldn't have? Obviously I didn't, you didn't. You took a picture, right, did I? Mean I wouldn't have? Obviously I didn't, you didn't. You took a picture, right, did I? You did. That's very me and that's very you. We were right. We're right in our spots there, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is just really interesting and even I mean I think about my day to day and how sometimes I think as humans, especially right now we assume that other people are so different from us that we're the only ones who are experiencing loneliness or isolation or disconnection or fear, discomfort, movement away from our values, like there's just so much of that in the world right now, and yet we can be in community with one another.
Speaker 1:Without necessarily naming the elephant in the room. We can just say do I know you? Your energy feels familiar. Maybe that's something. Only I would say.
Speaker 2:Are you reading people's auras? I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But like I had an interaction today where I was just like I feel, like I know you, but I don't think we've met before, and she was like I feel the same way.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's very, that's pop, because you I mean you do get out and about. You went to Chicago recently. You went to Arizona before that. Like you do get out and about but like the majority of your life is spent in your County. Yeah, so like you probably do run across the same people that you don't meet. You don't know them, but like you're in proximity to them Right, probably pretty often, let's say, they shop at the same Wegmans that you shop at. Like you're passing each other maybe four or five times a year.
Speaker 2:That's true, you're in there. And so maybe when you do meet somebody, especially somebody close to home, you're like I don't know you, but I do know you and maybe you just I mean, we've talked about your memory it's now it's now kind of a running joke that every episode we mentioned your memory. But like, maybe there's a part of your crazy memory that just does recognize people and then it just like stores it somewhere back in the gray matter. Yeah, maybe I don't know. I'd like to believe that's true. Actually, I like to believe that you have somewhere in the deep recesses and caverns of your unconscious brain you have a catalog of every person's face who you've ever seen in your entire life.
Speaker 1:I believe that my brain has its limits and yet I do think there's probably room in all of our brains for keying into that a little bit more. But maybe this is the way to do, it is like by creating those intentional interactions. I mean, you know, I am not very extroverted Like I am very much a homebody, I am social, I am good in like small groups.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think they have names for those types of people. Now, yeah, you definitely lull people into a false sense of security with your kindness and your sweetness and your openness, into thinking that you're some extroverted social person and you're all alive and then I crawl, I crawl into my car and I like potato for a good long while while I recover.
Speaker 1:But I think, like different groups, different energies, it's very it just depends Like there are definitely some groups where it is not very energy intensive. Anyway, all of that is to say I think it's amazing that you were able to have this reflective experience in which you made sense of you really reconciled your lifeline, of who you were and who you are and who you're becoming, and it sounds like carrying bravery forward and really validating and seeing other people on like a human soul level. It's going to be really cool, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think it's always nice to find out something about yourself that you really like Find out something about yourself that you really like that's always a nice thing to happen, and so I like that I'm brave, I like that.
Speaker 2:That is something attributed to me by people who are not me, and I like it that I think of that as myself as well. So you know, I was given a gift today and I didn't even know it was a gift until after it was over. So that's my thing, like take the gifts that you don't know are gifts and then enjoy them and take them with you, because you don't have to give them back. There's no return policy. You get to just hold on to them forever.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, my brave friend, thanks for unpacking that.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I love all your questions and your witnessing of my life, and now everyone gets to witness my life. Who listens right right exactly. I love it well thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Have a good joy. The rest of your afternoon, I sure will.
Speaker 2:I got a shrimp quesadilla waiting for me outside, so what I know?
Speaker 1:good times over here okay, it's gonna be great now I'm hungry.
Speaker 2:Thanks, you're welcome bye, bye hey it's jess and lisa. We've got stories to share from our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa. Tune in every week you won't wanna miss. Dive deep into life With Jess and Lisa.
